#201 | Does Your Church Allow For People In Process?, Pt. 2 | Mark Baker

If you're a pastor, you can't just read the book. And they say we're going to be centered because. Because the example.

So if I'm leading a small group Bible study and I'm seeking to be centered, but the people in the group are very fuzzy, the group is still going to be fuzzy or if they're very bounded, so many bounded. So I advocate for introducing the people to the language, to these concepts, so that there can be a shared understanding. This is who we are.

It's watering time, everybody.

It's time for Apollo's Watered, a podcast to saturate your faith with the things of God so that you might saturate your world with the good news of Jesus Christ. My name is Travis Michael Fleming and I am your host. And today on our show, we're having another one of our deep conversations.

Last time we started a conversation with Mark Baker about a paradigm shifting approach to being the church.

Instead of focusing on the boundaries that we have, who's in and who's out, and whether we really like or really hate a person, we need to focus on the center. Are we moving towards Jesus? That's it.

That's how we determine what's going on. It's not about whether you cross the line of membership or not, which is an important deal, don't get me wrong.

However, the question is, are people moving toward Jesus? What about those who haven't committed yet and yet they are inquiring and they. Want to know more.

They're in process. Are we trying to get them to behave before they believe or before they belong? I mean, really, what do we do?

That's why we've been advocating a centered set approach model, which means the church is messy. That's what it means. It means that it's not easy because if we just had who's in and who's out, then that's easy to look at.

We can totally see who's in and who's out. But with a center set approach that gives room for process. The other approaches don't allow that or that fuzzy approach.

Well, that doesn't require any standard behavior whatsoever. The centered set approach enables people to be in process as they're learning more about who Jesus is.

Because really beliefs do matter and our beliefs are to be pointing us to Jesus. But they aren't just a checklist to get us in. They are indicators of the direction that we're headed.

Today, more and more people, some Christians and some not want to belong before they will believe. They want to know that we Care. They're not some project or just a statistic. They want to know that they matter and we want to be with them.

Now, this doesn't affect being God centered, by the way. It just means showing love for people. They want to know that we actually believe what we say, that we believe.

A centered set approach does just that because we care about the things that Jesus cares about, namely people who need him. Today, we're continuing that conversation.

Now we're getting into the nitty gritty of how we can go about creating a centered set approach and some of the challenges we are likely to face in doing so. And to let you know that conversations like this can only happen because of listeners like you who want to reach their world.

That's why you listen to this show. You want to see people come to know Jesus.

You want to see the gospel take root in hearts, and you're trying to figure out why, why it hasn't been working where you are. That's why you are partnering with us, and that's why we are helping create this content, because we know that about you.

We want to make sure that you can water your world. That's why we're watering your faith, giving you the proper content to help you in your encounter of your culture where you are.

Now, we know that in order for these kind of conversations to happen, it requires funding. We need to raise $4,000 each month to continue giving you the best content that you can get in order to water your world.

And if God so inclines your heart, simply click the link in your show notes and we'll make that happen. Now let's get to the second part of my conversation with Dr. Mark Baker. Happy listening.

Being in, in pastoral ministry to see like we had membership.

And it was very clear early on when, especially when you're a younger leader who's in, who's out, and you have to make some decisions on what are those things that we're going to fight over, what are the things that we're going to have process.

But as time went on, especially as we started interacting with different cultures, Muslims and Hindus and Buddhists, they would come to worship and they wanted to be a part of the community. And you wanted to say, okay, well, what do we allow for in this process?

Or so many people coming in that were not married and they would, you know, they were living together, you'd want to give them, you want to call them to repentance, but they're not there yet. And it's this, the fluctuation, the question, though That I think a lot of people ask, and I just know this from knowing our audience.

Some are going to say, wait a minute, wait a minute. Jesus calls them to repent and they repent right away. Well, yes, but I don't think there is a one size fits all. I think that there are just.

Jesus deals with the heart and some he does call em to lay it down immediately, right then where they're at. There's other times he gives a bit of a process with them and allows them to work through that. And that's part of it.

But it is something that I don't think there is always a one size fits all. I think that there is, this is grace, this is the danger of grace. Cause grace is scandalous. There's mercy. God have mercy on me, a sinner.

And he's the one that goes home justified in the sight of God and not the man that goes, oh, I fast twice a week, I give a tenth of all that I have. And this makes it messy for a lot of people because they think, oh, we're becoming liberal or whatever.

They're becoming, whatever their terminology, their adjective is that they don't like and they're fearful of.

But how do we, as we're doing this messy process, how do we hold onto the tenets of orthodoxy within a centered set, allowing people an opportunity to process, but knowing when that they are, they're stalling their obedience and they're saying, no, no, no, I'm not gonna cross that line, I'm not gonna cross that line. Cause I know as soon as I do. For example, I'll just give you a quick illustration. We had a man who was at our church.

And again, these are these case studies you talk about.

You know, man was at our church, he come from an addiction background, came to know the Lord, slowly integrated small groups, became a member, was so proud, went on mission trips, was so grateful, was terribly lonely, terribly lonely. And so he wanted to date. And he started dating ladies that we just said, these aren't women that are good for you. Here's why.

But he refused to listen. And then he comes to us and he goes, you know, we moved in together and it's like, well, okay.

And he goes, and I've removed myself from membership, so you can't discipline me anymore. And it's like, well, wait a minute, no. And we had this. You actually refer to this in the book. We had a yearly affirmation of membership.

You would reaffirm it yearly, just so you know, to remind you what you've committed to. To see if you're still in line with us, where you're at.

But he was removing himself because he was trying to remove himself from the discipline aspect. And I went, no, no, no, now you're hiding. You know, we're coming after you in a good way because we care about you and where you're at.

But again, messy, messy situations. And, I don't know, very few situations do I find that are not messy. There's always another story.

But how do we help people fall into this holiness of life that God calls them? To allow room for process, but to know when we have to say, no, no, and I don't want to say we go from centered to bounded. That's not it.

Yeah. So, yeah, a few different thoughts came up as I was listening to what you're saying there. So first of all, just the repentance is.

I mean, that's a great centered word. Again, I mean, you look at the diagram, how are we determining whether people are part of this group or not? It's the direction of their arrows.

And what is repentance? It's turning around. So, yeah, so if someone says, oh, Jesus called for repentance all the time, I'd say amen. And you know, we do too.

And yeah, actually I was. I was recently in a webinar talking about centered set church. And.

And I will admit that the person that was talking, I mean, they were presenting as if they were very centered. And I was getting a little like, boy, I don't know, this feels a bit fuzzy to me. And I'm not sure. And so I pressed them and I said, okay, but when.

You know, there needs to be a time when people make a decision, you know, that. To repent, to come to Jesus. So when. Because the way he had talked about it, I didn't have that sense.

And he said, oh, actually we say that every week. We are, you know, what. What is your next step towards Jesus right now? What are you called to now? So I would. I would say, yeah, we.

Centered set calls for repentance and. And continually. So in a way that abounded wouldn't. Because we recogn. Recognize the journey, the pilgrimage. Now.

Then the next thing I thought was I might look at a situation and think, oh, this person needs to repent of X behavior.

But something I've learned from my own experience and talking to people in this book is God may have different things in mind for what this person most needs to repent of right now. So, yes, repent, but don't go in with my list of. And this is what you need to repent of, clearly.

But yeah, the sense of what is God doing in your life? What. What. Where do you need healing? Where are you off track? Let the spirit work.

Then the last thing I thought of saying in relation to your question, sort of when. And I think we can feel it in the story you said is that there.

If.

If we're journeying with people. And so a situation like you described, where the person is resistant and you are pressing and saying, no, I think this is out of line.

It seems to me you were doing the appropriate thing in a centered way. And then how does a person respond? And they say, oh, okay. Well, in essence, they're saying, I'm out of here. I mean, they're not.

That's exactly what I'm literally leaving. But. But they are.

I mean, if we look at the diagram, they're just saying, you know, I'd like to now sort of officially turn my arrow the other way because I want to keep living that way. And then, then so. And to feel that it's not that you came along and said, bad person, you are not a good.

Like they said, you're calling them to something. They respond.

And so I think the calling walking with is the most significant part, which can include in your case, did you explicitly saying, you know, I think this is not appropriate. This isn't good for you. And then how does the person respond? And. And yeah, I think they're. But I.

So I think a lot of times people will self select out and say, my arrow's the other way. But I. But I also want to be careful to say there are times when we do need to say no, you know, like you are.

And I think immediately two examples in the book. One is where a person was actually. They were in a small group and they were acting in a very bounded way.

And the group leader says, you know, we cannot. You must change your behavior in this group or leave, because that is not who we are.

So an ironic kind of thing, but I mean in the sense that if he was in a ballad church, he would have been fine, but for them was like one. We can't have that.

And then also I think in the chapter there where I talk about recovery ministry, yeah, there was a person who just was not doing their homework. And so they, they said to them, you can stay in our church. We love you, but you cannot be in this program.

Because if this program is gonna work for you and others in it, you need to do these things.

You Know, it's interesting, as you were talking, the parable came to my mind from Matthew 21 and sometimes called the parable of the two sons, not the prodigal. And it goes like this. Cause I think this just gives room and support to your process.

And I didn't see this reference in your book, but if you ever read an addendum, I think this would be so good. But he says, what do you think about this? This is Jesus talking. A man with two sons told the older boy, son, go out and work in the vineyard today.

The son answered, no, I won't go. But later changed his mind and went. Then the father told the son, you go. And he said, yes, sir, I will. But he didn't go.

Which of the two obeyed his father? They replied the first. Then Jesus explained his meaning. I tell you the truth.

Corrupt tax collectors and prostitutes will get into the kingdom of God before you. For John the Baptist came and showed you the right way to live. But you didn't believe him while tax collectors and prostitutes did.

And even when you saw this happening, you refused to believe him and repent of your sins. But it's interesting there, and I haven't looked at the. The context. I mean, it says, today, son, go out and work in the vineyard today.

And he says, no. But then, you see, he does. You know, it's that process. They say, hey, I'll do it. I'm gonna do it all. But their hearts aren't right. And that's.

I think it just comes back to. And understanding that process. But again, I know some people are saying, well, how do you do?

Like, if my church values membership and how do we go about this? If someone says, hey, look at that guy. He's not doing it. Why can't I? And it comes back to that. That, again, what's the heart? Are they in the.

Are they moving in the direction of Jesus? Do they recognize it? Are they saying, God have mercy on me, a sinner, I know I screwed up. They're looking for grace, looking for restoration.

And I know some churches that don't do that. They will use shame as a weapon, not restorative.

I talked to a young man the other day, and he was mentioning how this one young woman ended up getting pregnant. Not pregnant, but she got married and they got divorced. And then she had told the church later that we had slept together before we got married.

And they brought her up and publicly shamed her. And I thought, what are you doing to this young woman who's already been broken? Two wrongs Aren't gonna make a right.

This doesn't seem the way of Jesus to me. So how do we help people to see this? Because they think they're following the Lord. They're following what they think is the scriptural way.

And they still don't understand this aspect of shame, that instead of being a restorative and helping people back, that it's using to promote control, power, humiliation, trauma, how do we help people with that?

Yeah. So first to say that is a great example of disinterpretive shaming. So back to your previous question. That's disintegrative.

So my hope is, I may be overly optimistic about this, but I think, I think many people that are in bounded situations hold to their bounded ways because they are clear that the things that they believe are important and the behaviors that they affirm are important. And they're, they're, they're bounded mentality.

And you know, and it's not like even the example you gave, it's not like people are sitting in a back room, you know, Tuesday night, elders meeting or something, saying, okay, so how can we really shame this person? Like, that's what we're about, is shaming people. So how can we shame people? Like, I don't, it's not, they're not leading with that.

But, but I think the, the paradigm itself, if you have this, this idea that we have these rules, those criterias, we, we have to enforce them, it takes you the way of shaming.

So again, maybe naive, but my hope would be if the people from that church are, you know, listening to this today and think, huh, this sounds interesting, they get the book or find out about this. I think, oh, there's a way that we can maintain our convictions, take things seriously, but avoid the shaming and judgmentalism.

I have the hope that presenting an alternative will enable people to see a way they can hang on to things that are important to them but not have the shame.

Again, it comes back to, I mean, there's so many situations that there is not never a one size fits all approach. Rarely and even then I'd say that you're going to do it wrong before you do it right. I hope that's not the case.

But I think we learn more from our mistakes than we do from always our successes. I do know that people have an innate desire. I think part of the imaging of God is to belong and people want to belong.

And then they see this idea of belief.

And I know other people say, hey, you believe before you belong, but we've had a lot of neuroscientists on the show, and they've shown now that we do belong. We seek to belong before we ever do believe. And it's the belonging that gives credence and enables us to believe.

Creates really a plausibility structure for us to see it. That's not to say we don't call people the belief. We do just want to make sure that we love them and care for them, and that helps them to see that.

The hard part for many of us that have grown up in what I call a high Christendom culture is that you have the people that are already good in your mind with not the outright sin, but the inner sins that are hard to see. And we have no problem with them belonging before they believe.

It's those that have the outward sin where it's much more obvious whether it's someone who is perhaps transgender.

They're coming into your services dressed as one person, or you see two women coming in that are holding hands or whatever it might be in our contemporary situation. I mean, it could be anything. A man with four women, who knows? You know, in our just our contemporary situation, there's no end to that.

The harder part is giving people that room for process when there's a disruption. Because some would say, okay, well, I know some are even saying to me right now, okay, Travis, you've gone too far. Because our church.

Church is not for the unbeliever, it's for the believer. And I could say, okay, that's true to an extent. But to say. Not to say that. It's not for the unbeliever, it's for the believer.

In that, yes, we know Paul has set all this stuff up, but to think that you're not going to encounter unbelievers on a Sunday morning, I think especially in our cultural context, is just naive.

I really think it's naive, especially since we have so many people that are, quote, unquote, deconstructing who may have grown up in church, and they want to go back, but they're still a mess. There's still a mess, and they're in this process. How do we help maintain the purity of the body in this that Paul talks about?

And there is a judgment aspect. I mean, Paul says, you know, don't even eat with such a brother who's in sexual sin in 1 Corinthians 5.

And then yet at the same time, give room for process for people. And that was always the trouble, right? That was always the issue that we had. And we Actually treated members differently than we did.

Non members still trying to be centered. But there was a point in time where we say we called them, they became part of the body.

You're held to a higher standard because so how do you help and. Or where have you seen.

Perhaps that's worked well where they've been able to call people to that and give room for people to process at the same time.

Again, I think let's start with a negative example. So fuzzy is all about belonging. Not like it would be okay to not believe. I mean, they can't say even sort of what are you supposed to believe?

But in the long run, it's not a great place to belong because it's so fuzzy. There's just. There's not security there. Okay. So that is not the way to go.

And just to say it, to have things have clarity on this is who we are, this is what we believe. And I say in the book, you know, defining your center is a very, very important part of this. Yeah.

I think, and I appreciate what you said about having a different standard. I mean, I think in the sense that, yeah, as people make commitment towards the center, then they're in a different situation.

They have said, this is the journey I'm on. I'm in this. And let me back up here. Here's something I was going to say about the previous thing, but I think the language itself is very important.

So one of the things that. Yeah. That I, That I advocate in the book is or make the observation a leader cannot do this by himself or by herself.

So if you're leading a small group, you read the book and say, okay, I got to be centered. You can't do it by yourself. If you're a pastor, you can't just read the book. And they say we're going to be centered because.

Because again, to go the example.

So if I'm leading a small group Bible study and I'm seeking to be centered, but the people in the group are very fuzzy, the group is still going to be fuzzy or if they're very bound, it's so many bounded. So I advocate for introducing the people to the language, to these concepts so that there can be a shared understanding. This is who we are. And I.

Yeah, not everyone's going to read the book. I made a series of five videos to make it easier. But yeah, introduce people to the. So then to your purity question. If we are.

We have this shared sense of we are centered on Jesus and that's what it means, then I think the belonging Longing, a belief coming is not as threatening or problematic because. Because there's this clear sense, our center, our center matters. And your orientation to the center matters.

So whereas, yeah, a bounded group, it's the line. And so it's just, have you crossed the line or not cross the line? It's neat. And you, you can't have the messiness.

But I think if you bring a bounded mentality to a centered church, it can feel like, oh, you don't take belief seriously. But I'd say no, in a centered approach, you could take belief seriously. And if you're articulating letting people know, I think it's.

Yeah, I think it has greater evangelistic potential because it's not just saying belonging is enough. The people that are visiting, they're going to pick up, oh, it's about orientation to this center that matters.

It does matter. I mean, of course it is that center, as you mentioned.

And what we tried to do is, I mean, we did have membership as kind of a line of demarcation, but it just meant you were to a higher standard. We still gave people opportunity to belong and to be a part of different things.

There were certain things that they just couldn't do yet because they weren't committed to the process, but we would give room. And again, not that ours was a perfect system and it was one that we were always working with and trying to tweak.

And I particularly, it was a challenge for me when I first got there, just because I'd come from a bounded set church and that's what I was used to. And we were encountering situations, we were in the city.

And when you encounter people in the city, you just see it more openly and I think more frequently than you do in suburbia where it's much more covered and you can hide behind a deep, I mean, a veneer. And I do wonder, when you're looking at this centered set approach, do you see any differentiation between cultures, how they go about this?

As you've written on honor shame, I think of an Asian culture where it's much more higher. I mean, even though being from Honduras, is that more of a honor shame?

Well, it's more honor shame than here in the United States. Not as much as Asia, but yes, certainly it would be lived out in different ways because.

Yeah, what living confrontation that might work without disinterestive shaming in suburban United States might be deeply shaming in a disintegrative way in, you know, Japan or Thailand or something like that. So it, I think the. Yeah, And Heber developed this in India.

I mean, so it's, it's not a Western bound concept, but I think the application of it would. Will vary in different cultural settings.

We were going to talk about this in the beginning, but we didn't get a chance to tell us about who Paul Hebert is. We've referred to his name a couple of times. I know many in our audience are not going to be familiar with him, but he's a pretty amazing thinker.

And his insights, though he's with Jesus now, his insights are still permeating across many within the mission. I mean, I would say missiology specifically, but just people how they're going about church in the Western context too.

These ideas that he gave are pretty paradigm shifting in a way. But tell us a bit who Paul Hebert was.

Yeah, so one neat thing to say, and I mean I dedicated the book to him and my, and my students because he actually, he went to the seminary where I now teach. So not. Yeah. At the same time or anything. But it's. So he, yeah, he, he grew up Mennonite brethren in Kansas and went as a missionary to India.

And, and yeah, I just, I mentioned Kansas because there he is in India and he's like, okay, you know, you'd have someone, they'd come and, and what's it mean to be a Christian? So in Kansas, it's why you accept Jesus as your personal savior. You're a Christian. And so he's in India and you know, he's talking to someone.

Would you like to accept Jesus? And they say yes.

And then, you know, he goes and visits them and talks to them more and they have Jesus up on their shelf with, you know, their other ten gods or something. And he started to realize, oh, this, this is, this, this language, this way of conceiving, it's not working here.

And that was the root of him coming up with bounded, fuzzy and centered, of thinking. Okay, I need a different way of discerning who's a believer, who belongs in the India context. So.

And that, yeah, he went on and did his PhD in cultural anthropology and taught at Fuller Seminary and then later at Trinity Deerfield in Illinois. And I should mention. So we're talking about Paul Hubert in relation to these bounded, fuzzy and centered. I think, you know, you.

Yeah, it might be to say, oh, Mark Baker, he's all about bounded, centered and fuzzy. Like this is one chapter in Paul Hebert's books. So like, yeah, his work on, you know, contextualization, pressing the difference between. Yeah.

Openness to Things of the spirit and the spirit world and other parts of the world compared to the West. Like he's, he's done a lot, he did a lot of work in a lot of areas in, yeah, missiology, cultural anthropology, missionary anthropology.

So you're talking about the flaw of the excluded middle. Is that what you were talking about? For those, for those that don't know. That's actually a fascinating thing in our culture today, actually.

Explain that really quick for people. Just this flaw of the excluded middle.

Yes.

People are like, okay, what are you guys talking about? I want to follow along, explain it.

Because it really has tremendous effects on us in the west, especially for those who are not used to certain things that go on in other cultures. You're going to encounter it.

If you haven't, if you're interacting with anyone from a different culture, usually first generation, you're inevitably going to encounter it. But go ahead, explain it.

And feel like I don't actually remember the language of middle and this. But so feel free to interrupt or add to this after I'm done. But what I remember is this sense of you, you have this clash of missionaries.

So you take a missionary from, you know, me, suburban New York, and you send them to, you know, East Africa or West Africa and they go into a village in which, you know, the realm of the spirits, this is not fantasy there, like they, they, the, the, you know, cursing people and, you know, whether they call it demons or something. But the spirit world is part of daily life.

And so you had this missionary communicating a gospel which is coming from a intellectual, scientific realm. And it is just ignoring, not being in touch with this whole other realm of life which is part of reality, daily life for these people.

And Hebert's saying, yeah, we, we are, we are missing in a big time way in this, in this sense of being missionaries. If we're not engaging this other realm.

I think that's a pretty, pretty good, apt way of putting it, I think of in a contemporary set you've got people like.

And we've had him on the show and though he's with Jesus now, Michael Heiser, who wrote a book called the Unseen Realm, and talking about demons and angels and, and people hear that. But it's interesting that a lot of pastors and a lot of churches don't talk about that.

They'll talk about the religiosity, they'll talk about sin, they'll talk about the cross, but they don't talk about the powers. They don't talk about spirits and ancestors and things like that, but other cultures do. And if you don't, then they're going to encounter it.

I have encountered that several different times. And I think in some ways God has allowed the nations to come to us to be corrected here in the West.

And I, and I've maintained for quite some time that God bringing the nations, it's for one or two reasons, either to renew the church or to be reached. It's one of the two things and it's interesting.

We've been looking at the statistics and how Christianity in the west has been declining for some time.

But as we record this, we're in the month of April and Easter just passed, but CNN just ran an article on Easter Sunday and it said the demise of evangelicalism, I think it was, or Christianity in the America was premature.

And I, I, I went to read the article a little bit defensive, not that I want Christianity to decrease, but having armed with my statistics to show the other, the other way, I was pleasantly surprised where they said the demise was premature in that the church is growing because of immigrants and refugees that are coming here from all over the world.

But they bring their worldview and it's very different from those who are in a, in the, the majority here in the United States that do not come from a background where spirits and ancestors were part of the common everyday experience. So he offers a corrective to us.

Now, we've got a little bit off topic, but it all relates, I mean, this idea of how we go about this, how we live this out in our world today as we encounter different people that are in process, that held a different worldview than we do.

As we're going about this though, and we're doing it, what advice do you have for those, those, those leaders that are out there, and many of them are pastors that listen to the show and they say, well, wait a minute, I, I need to research this a little bit more, but I think that's where we'd like to get to.

Although my church is bounded or it's fuzzy, what advice do you give them that are willing to take this centered approach and join this journey to centeredness, knowing that they could full well really isolate and infuriate or frustrate the people that they are in leadership with?

Okay, so let me. Thank you. That's a great question. Let me say three or four things.

And first of all, and this is more a comment to them, not advice, but an important observation.

So in the book I'm seeking to, and in our conversation today, I'm seeking to make these categories very clear, you know, bounded, fuzzy, centered, and make them distinct from each other and different in real life. Yeah, it's, it's again, messier. And so, and I guess this ends up being advice.

So, so a piece of advice is don't look at and say, oh, you know, we're centered. Like, yeah, Mark, we're with you. Great. Or to say, oh, we're bounded and what a lousy thing we've got.

I think most churches are either a mix of, you know, bounded and centered or fuzzy and centered. Or even within a church you might have, you know, people that are fuzzy and some that are bounded.

And so the question is not just oh, are we bounded or are we centered? But I think the question is how can we become more centered?

So my one piece of advice is don't start by we're this or that in a binary kind of way and think, okay, now we've arrived. So one is to constantly be asking, how can we become more centered?

Second thing of advice, and I'd already said this, so I'll just repeat it quickly, is I think it's extremely important to share the concepts with the congregation or with the group you're ministering to so that there's a common sense of understanding. This is what we're trying to do. And I think that becomes helpful not just in bringing people on board with you, but it helps in communication.

So then you're in a meeting and, and there's examples this in the book, you know, but you're in a meeting and, and the leader can say, okay, now remember we're trying to be centered. Or some situation comes up and you can ask, boy, I don't know, how can we do this in a centered way?

And so it be, it becomes helpful language in helping you become centered. So one is to ask the question, to be constantly asking the question, how can we become more centered?

The second is to introduce people to the categories and that can become common language.

And then I think a very crucial thing is, yeah, obviously I think these categories, these concepts are important, valuable tools, but of fundamental importance is who is the God of the center? And so I have a chapter on that in the book because, and you think of it this way, if you are thinking, okay, we're going to become centered.

But if most of the people in your group, in your congregation are living a God of conditional love, if their view of God is God is a sort of finger pointing, judgmental God, then the church is going to be bounded because their experience that, that, that concept of God will trump anything you do to try and be centered. So that's why I think it's of extreme importance to make very clear to work at God being the God that's revealed to us by Jesus.

So I work with Jesus a lot in the book, both as an example of let's learn from Jesus how to be centered, but also learn from Jesus than who is God. So that would be another, another piece of advice I would give.

And then I guess lastly and I, I referred to this before, but to not be thinking of learning, you know, these six or seven different.

This is the centered way to do this, the centered way to do this, but to be working at qualities that enable you, your group, your ministry, to be centered. So, and I have a chapter in the book on that as well. But you know, compassion, curiosity, creativity, safety, where people can be vulnerable, trust.

And that's both my, as a leader, my trust that God is the one that's going to make this happen and trust between people and then humility to, yeah, humility with others that were a work in process. So developing those qualities and that will facilitate the living out of a center approach.

Another question I have, and I know you've kind of summarized for us, but I just, I can't let go of this question.

How do you differentiate, working this centered set approach out between a smaller church and much larger church where the, the, the anonymity is just easy to do and that's why people go there is because of the anonymity. How do you help people do that or does this differentiate?

Well, let me say this. I mean, I think your observation is very good.

And if someone is just a spectator in a large church, I would, I would say it is still valuable to preach, teach in a centered way. So the language is more centered than bounded or fuzzy.

So I wouldn't say, sorry, you know, if the person's just sitting there, that's all they're doing, you can't do this. I say, no, it still matters. Like, and so I have a chapter in the book on how to give ethical exhortation in a centered way.

And I think it matters how we're talking about these things and preaching and teaching and people will have different experiences if our talk is more bounded, fuzzy or centered.

But in terms of the diagram, you know, if it's a very large church and someone's only sitting there on a Sunday morning, not involved in a small group or something. Yeah, realistically, it's going to be, it is not going to be a full centered experience.

For them because they're not, they're not journeying with someone, they're not walking with someone.

So the, the, yeah, and when I did my interviews, I mean I visited people from some very small church plants and a couple, you know, very big churches, one a multi site church.

And the bigger ones that were working and being at centered, it was very clear that their small groups, their weekly meetings were of vital importance. And they emphasized that to people.

I mean one of them, even to the point of saying, you know, every couple months they would say, if you are not part of, of one of these midweek house groups, then maybe this is not the church for you, maybe you should be. And like that's a really centered statement, right? I mean they're not being bounded, like you can't come, but they're not being fuzzy.

They're saying, this is who we are. We think this is so important that if you're not going to do this, you know, this might not be the place for you.

So it gives both, gives a degree of flexibility and really that's what the centered approach does. As you said, it's pointing people to Jesus, helping them take their next step with Jesus, whatever that might be.

And I've often joked, we had a guy at one of my churches who was this really rough guy, dedicated servant of Jesus, but he was just rough. He's that old guy at the church who get off the chair or you know, get off that table and all the kids are afraid of him.

And I remember a guy leaving the service one time and it was a small Baptist church in New England. And he said, if that's a Christian, I don't want to be one.

And I've often made the joke, I said, can you imagine what he would be like if he didn't have Jesus? I mean, you don't have no idea how far he's come in his journey. And the same with you. You've come with a journey. We all had a different journey.

We all have another step of obedience to take. We all have that prompting that we need to obey.

We all need that community to come around us to help us and proverbially hold our feet to the fire to help us take that next step with Jesus. And sometimes we have to give room for that process.

Other times we need to push knowing that that process has been given enough time and they need to act. And again, this isn't an exact science.

This is us working out our salvation with fear and trembling as we seek to be the best kingdom agents that we are to be in the middle of this sinful and broken world.

And for many of us that are of a certain age or vintage, let's say we've been around a while and we've seen how the culture shifted and we're seeing more and more people coming onto our shores, if you will. Is very much broken and needing a lot of grace, needing a lot of attention.

And for many of us that have grown up in cultures where Christianity was a majority, it was we could afford to be. I mean we shouldn't have been, but we did much more of the bounded way. This is who's in, this is who's out.

But as the culture has become much more secularized and we want to reach people and give room for process, especially those coming from either completely non religious backgrounds whatsoever or a contra religion, I mean a totally different religion, they need to have room to process this as well as they're going through this and trying to do this. What are some concluding thoughts?

We like to tell people we want to give you a water bottle for the week to sip on to nourish your faith, to water your faith that you might be nourished. What's a concluding thought that we can give to our people about being centered?

Yeah, so I, I guess, I mean I had my statements just there of advice but a concluding thought I just like let's go to Jesus and I mean Luke 15 to me is just captures our God revealed by Jesus as living out a centered approach. So my concluding thought is one to, to picture ourselves as in our hurt broken state.

You know, Jesus invites us to the table as he invited the, the tax collectors, not the tax collectors and sinners the table.

So we are people who are invited and, and Jesus desires to embrace us like you know, the prodigal son running home, that father running out there willing to sacrifice his own honor to embrace the Son.

So we are welcomed by a God who most desires to include us, to bring us into fellowship with others, not to shame us and exclude us and to recognize that this is a God who takes seriously the damage done by that shaming and excluding and in Luke 15 confronts the scribes and Pharisees who wanted to do that.

So so my concluding thought is both to know you listener, are person loved and embraced by Jesus, by the God represented by the Father in that parable and let us go out and and embrace others who are excluded and include them in the same way that Jesus does in that, in that beautiful chapter.

I believe in synods at church because as Mark said at the end. God lives this centered approach. He's patient with us. He allows for process. He offers grace. But he doesn't leave us where we are.

Truth matters, right? Belief matters, not as ends in themselves, but because they point us to Jesus, whom the Father sent to us to redeem us.

If we want to reach our neighbors, and I know that you do, if we want to reach our own children, and I know you do, we need a centered approach. Increasingly, our boundaries seem out of touch and maybe even evil to our Western culture. That doesn't mean that we abandon these things, though.

It means we've got to live them better. We have to show how they point us to Jesus. This is what I did at my churches.

And we saw amazing results because it gave people the opportunity to ask questions, to learn, to see if people really love them. And it transformed them. Now, I know this. Not everyone is going to agree with this approach, and that's okay. It's not our job to convert people.

That's the Holy Spirit's job. It's our job to live faithfully and point the way.

I'm sure that for many, the concepts and approaches from this conversation will were new and quite honestly, probably challenging. We want to hear from you about what struck you in this episode. What was a bit hard to take in?

What do you need time to process or do you want to hear more about? Let us know on Facebook, Instagram or Simply email me travispollo.org and don't forget to click the link in your show notes.

We're looking for those watering partners to help us reach that $4,000 goal for each month. Thank you in advance. I want to thank our Apollo water team for helping us to water your world. This is Travis Michael Flemings signing off. From Apollo is Watered. Stay watered, everybody.