#152 | Cultural Counterfeits, Pt. 1 | Jen Oshman

This self creation, self reliance, do it yourself, be yourself, decide who you are going to be yourself. That just idol of the autonomous individual. I think that it is not serving us well. I mean, the data bears this out.

It's watering time, everybody.

It's time for Apollo's Watered, a podcast to saturate your faith with the things of God so that you might saturate your world with the good news of Jesus Christ. My name is Travis Michael Fleming and I am your host. And today on our show, we're having another one of our deep conversations.

I loved growing up in a small town. My mom was from a small town, my dad was from a small town. But imagine my surprise when I found myself going to college in, in Chicago.

I mean, it was a bit of a culture shock. And I remember exploring the city with my roommate who was from a smaller town than I was.

We're walking down the street, an Ontario and Clark, and there's a guy there with a table set up with a little briefcase open and it's got all these, this jewelry displayed. And one of them was a Rolex watch.

And I remember my roommate reaching in, grabbing it, looking it over, putting it back, had no interest, getting the eye, really frustrated because he got fingerprints and smudges on it. And of course, one of our other friends ended up buying it so he could have a Rolex.

But of course it was counterfeit, it was fake, and it fell apart within just a few days. We all know about counterfeits and fakes. I don't think, though many of us realize that a lot of our counterfeits are actually within our culture.

These are found within the ideas that we accept the culture that we live in, and we accept it without even thinking about it. Today we're starting a deep conversation with Jen Oshman.

Jen is an author, speaker, former missionary, pastor's wife, mom, and as I found out in the conversation, grandmother. And she's especially engaged in women's ministry. And I'm talking to her today about her book, Cultural Counterfeits.

Now, I know that some of my people just said, oh, it's about women's ministry. This doesn't apply to me. Don't stop the episode. Don't stop it because this episode is for everyone.

And I kid you not, while her book may be largely targeted at women and the five cultural counterfeits that women face, the reality is, is that most of what she's talking about applies to all of us, men and women. But if you need more convincing, how about this? If you're A dad of daughters. You need to understand the world that they're facing or you are married.

You need to understand the world your wife is facing, even now, years later. If you're a pastor, you need to understand what the women in your church are dealing with. I mean, we get the idea.

We all need to hear this conversation. But before we get to Jen, we do need your help.

For the month of February, we're doing the 10 for 10 challenge where we are looking for 10 new watering partners who will give at least $10 a month to help water thirsty souls around the world. If you've been blessed by this show, then sign up. It's simply two coffees at Starbucks and that's it.

Go to apolloswater.org, click the support us button, and by doing that, you're becoming a watering warrior, standing in the dry places, pouring out the water of life to bring water where life is languishing. Now, with that in mind, without further ado, let's get to Jen Oshman. Happy listening. Jen Oshman, welcome to Apollo's Watered.

Thank you so much. Good to be with you.

So are you ready for the fast five?

I'm ready. Let's hear it.

The thing that you missed when you were overseas was what?

Chipotle.

That's a good one.

This is the answer.

Oh, nothing equivalent. No, nothing like that at all.

Oh, not even close.

Oh, okay. So how about number two here? Because you lived in Europe, Asia and in North America. So Europe or Asia?

Oh, you mean if I had to go back?

Whatever you want it to mean.

Oh, my goodness. I can't pick. That's like trying to pick between children. I can't do it.

That's easy. I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. Okay, how about if you had to go back? How about that? Let's go there.

I think if I had to go back, my preference would slightly be Europe only because it feels practically next door in terms of travel compared to flying to the other side of the planet. So really selfish, silly reason.

How long did it take you to get to Japan?

Well, we served in Okinawa so easily almost 30 hours every time to and from door to door.

30 hours. Direct flight or none of those. There's not only direct flights. Three flights all the time.

Yeah.

Did you have a pet with you by any chance?

We flew a dog home from Japan when we moved away from there forever, so that was the only time.

But you had kids, which is tough.

We had four kids. There was one point when I flew alone with three of them who were toddlers and babies. So that was an adventure.

Oh, my. Lance, I can't even imagine. Okay, well, number question number three, the one thing from Japan you wish Westerners would do.

Okay, this is also sounds kind of silly, but it's true. And if you've been to Japan, you know it's true. The customer service there is unmatched.

I mean, the people who work in McDonald's Wear, like, heels and stockings and gloves and hats. Like the. We, my kids, whenever we flew home, they would always hope and pray that it was a Japanese airline, not an American airline.

There's just, like, this, like, service orientation. This how can I help you? What can I do to make your day better Kind of situation in Japan at all times. And I do really miss that.

What is it? This isn't one of the questions. I just have this as a question because I love this.

What is the thing that you do in Japan when you take the hot towels and you, like, wipe your hands in your face? What do they call that? Do you know?

I do not know, but it's great. It's very refreshing.

I love it. I try to get my family to do it, and they look at me like I'm nuts. I'm like, I love it. It just gets me ready to go.

There's just something beautiful about it. All right, number four. If your life were a movie, what would it be called and who would play you?

Oh, my gosh, this one's impossible. What would it be called? I mean, from where I'm sitting, looking at my life, I feel like the title would have to do with just the unexpected.

I never thought I would live on three continents. Didn't think I'd be a missionary now, an author. It's just been. The whole thing has been one big surprise. And I'm not sure who I would have claimed.

Me. I have to admit, I'm not really a movie buff. I watch one movie maybe every three or four years.

Whoa.

I know it's bad. I just don't do it. So I don't even know who the actresses are that I should choose from.

No, that's fine. I mean, I'm not even sure if I know. I'm still old school.

I think you get older, and it's weird to me that I don't know any of the younger ones unless my kids know them. I don't know any of the younger ones. But it's like, okay, who in your memory then? How about that? Like a memory you have of an older Actress.

I don't even know.

Like, Meryl Streep.

Sure, I'll take it. I'm sure any of them would do a great job.

Okay, okay, okay, okay, okay.

A tall one. I'm six feet tall. We're gonna need a tall actress.

Oh, really?

Yeah. So you know the qualification.

It's crazy because my wife got me watching the Crown.

You like the crown?

Okay, so. So the. I don't know if it's season. I don't even know what season it is we're watching, but I know that Diana.

I didn't know that Diana was like, 5 11, 5 10, 5 11. Did you know that?

I didn't know that. Yeah. She looks tall.

Well, in the. In the movie, Elizabeth DeBecky, who's playing her, is 6:3.

Oh, my gosh.

And she's wearing heels. And I'm like, what? I'm like, why? I mean, I knew that Diana was tall, and she does a great job. I mean, Elizabeth DeBecky does, but that's tall.

That's really tall. I don't care.

That's really tall. I almost never meet a woman taller than me, so six three. That's awesome.

That's crazy. Was your. Are your parents tall?

My dad was 6 6. My mom's just 5 8, so clearly taken after my dad.

I had a. I had a college roommate who was 5 11, but his mom was 5 8, and his dad was 5 3, but his dad's. His mom's brothers. She had two brothers.

They were both 7 footers.

What?

And she married a guy 5 3, so it was like, what, you think?

That is really funny.

Will your kids be tall?

So my youngest, who's 15, is taller than me. She's the tallest.

Wow.

Yeah.

So you had to have towered over people in Japan, I would think. Am I?

Yes. Am I? No, you're right.

And my husband's 6 5, and so actually, when we made the transition from Japan to the Czech Republic, it was really bizarre because we had been in Japan for 10 years. So for 10 years, we related to each other in crowded spaces by just making eye contact over the crowd.

And then we get to the Czech Republic, and it so middle of winter, and everybody's tall and wearing black parkas. And so I turned and talked to every man that wasn't my husband in every crowded situation.

Are there that many guys? Six, five.

It's Czech is tall. Yeah, Czech and Germany, those. Those are pretty tall countries.

Well, I knew that Germany was tall because every time I fly internationally, I would encounter a German flight team, the pilots and the, and the flight attendants. And every time I felt like a little kid because, I mean, I'm six foot, but that's. They're tall. They're tall. All right, here we go. Number five.

The one thing that I do that most irritates my family is.

I think I have this habit here. We live in Colorado now, which is obviously a gorgeous state to live in. The kids grew up in Okinawa, Japan, tropical island.

Then we moved to Europe with a lot of medieval beauty. So a phrase that I have said routinely for many years now is, you guys, feast your eyes. Feast your eyes. I'm always telling them to feast their eyes.

And I definitely get eye rolls because I guess I say it too much, but I can't help myself.

Well, our kids, of course, pick up our habits and the words that we say and then they repeat them back and they, oh, those are fun times. My kids are always giving me a hard time anyway. Yeah. All right, well, let's get into. Let's talk about a little bit about your story.

I mean, you've alluded to it, but for those that don't know you or have not read the book, let's hear the Jen Oshman story. Because you've live in a lot of places, you've given a great deal of bio in your work.

But I know, and what I've learned is that you were converted at a young age, married at 20, been a missionary, podcaster, writer, mother of four, and wife to a pastor who's now an Acts 29 pastor. So, yeah, besides that, tell us a bit about your story.

Yeah, that kind of sums it up. I was born and raised in Denver into a non believing home. When my parents divorced at 8, my mom sought church out.

And so thankfully at the age of nine, I heard the gospel and I believed, but I wasn't, you know, in an environment that discipled me. So I can't say that I felt, you know, truly surrendered to the Lord or had an understanding of what that was until I went away to college.

And the Lord really brought me to my knees as I cried out to him for just identity and healing and help and hope in that, you know, young adult season of life. So it was right around the age of 18 when I experienced the call of God to overseas missions. And I had just met my husband.

He did not live where I was. I was in college in Indiana, he was in Colorado.

And so we had this long distance friendships slash dating relationship for a few years where we both felt called to full time Ministry and over increasingly overseas missions. And so we did marry very young.

We both come from a long line of divorce, and so that was kind of scandalous amongst our, you know, our people group, our family.

But we had the, you know, sweet input of missions pastors who knew us really well and discipled us and gave us all kinds of premarital counseling and encouraged us, you know, if you feel the Lord calling, go ahead and get married. So we did.

I was still in college, finished up, he was in seminary, finished up, and after a year of marriage, we headed overseas, had a newborn baby and had two more, adopted a fourth. We have a daughter who is our oldest daughter, but our newest daughter, she was 12 when we brought her home from Thailand to Japan.

The other girls were three, five and seven. So we have all daughters. Spent about a decade ministering to the American military in Okinawa, Japan.

So our church there was four service members and their families. So we lived a very Japanese life in that all of our shopping and taxes and health care and stuff was Japanese.

But our in depth relationships and ministry was to Americans. So that was a really unique way to live.

And then the catalyst that led from us moving from Okinawa, Japan to the Czech Republic is that my husband's mom was diagnosed with ALS and her dad had died from ALS right before we left for the mission field. So we had the crushing realization that my husband's family is one of the rare ones that carries the gene for als.

And so though life and ministry was a pure joy in Japan, we just had that moment of going, you know, your life might be a lot shorter than we think it will be. What is it that you all, you, you want to do? What do you want to leave on the field? And he had always felt very burdened for the Czech Republic.

He spent a semester in college in Prague and saw that though there were crucifixes and cathedrals on every corner, people truly did not know who Jesus was. Jesus was a cuss word or the baby that brought you gifts on Christmas, but no concept of the gospel.

Less than 1/2 of 1% of Czech people know Jesus as Savior. So a very dark place. And so he said, I want to go there. I want to preach Christ in the Czech Republic.

So we made that massive transition only to be on the field for a couple years before we were called home to care for my dad, who was dying from Alzheimer's and dementia and was very much alone without anybody caring for him. So we obeyed the Lord in that, relocated to Colorado, brought home these, you know, tweens and teens back to America.

Their first time living here ever. So that was a huge transition and we've been here seven years. The Lord was gracious to plant a church out of our living room. Didn't see that coming.

But we now have an almost six year old church here in Parker, Colorado, suburb of Denver and girls who are growing ages 15 to 25. So there you go. That's probably more than you wanted, but there it is.

25. There's no way you have a 25 year old.

Well, she's our oldest. Right, the one we brought home as a 12 year old.

So 25, that's just crazy because you're, you're, I mean I, I saw your birth year in there. You're younger than I am and I'm like, yeah, 25.

I say it's life in the fast lane. And she actually is married to a guy in the army and they have two kids. So we are grandparents. What?

Don't do that to me, Jen. I'm not ready.

Same. I'm not ready, but here I am.

Not ready for that. I am not ready. Okay. All right, now you've made me feel really old. Thanks a lot, Jen. I appreciate that.

You're welcome.

Okay, well, let's get. Hey, I actually have a couple questions.

Number one, when you were in, you mentioned in the book about your dad questioning you and you converted at a very young age. Yeah, because he, he was, he knew the implications. How did that relationship change over the years? I'm just very curious on that.

Especially when you came to his aid when he was dying.

Yeah, it was a hard relationship. And I have to be honest and just confess that we didn't want to come home.

I didn't want, I'm ashamed to say it, but I didn't really want to come home and do that. I wanted to stay in the Czech Republic. We felt called to overseas church planting. Yeah. So my dad was an attorney, so a good arguer by trade.

He was raised by atheists, only child, so really had a cold feeling toward matters of faith.

So then when I surrendered my life to the Lord, you know, as a 10 year old telling my dad I want to get baptized and him arguing with me over that and going to the pastor and making a profession of faith as this, you know, timid 10, 11 year old girl, I look back on that now and I'm like, holy cow, I can't believe, you know, that's what happened. But at the time the spirit was moving. The spirit compelled me.

My relationship with my dad when it came to faith was one where we never saw eye to eye. And as we came back, you know, he was definitely grateful.

By the time we finally came home, I had been going back and forth from the mission field to my dad, back and forth, and that was unsustainable. So we made the decision to move. By the time we got here, his Alzheimer's and dementia was pretty progressed.

And so he was for sure thankful for our ministry to him, but also not able to really comprehend, you know, the various facets of that. And he did pass away outside of the Lord about four years ago, he. He died. So that was, you know, obviously traumatic for me.

I feel like I had been preparing for that, you know, for 30 years, knowing since the time I was 9, 10, that if my dad dies without Jesus, it's going to be real bad. And so it was a grief that had been observed for 30 years and it came to fruition four years ago. And obviously one I still carry with me.

But the Lord was near to me and remains near to me and really impressed upon me that he is the God of my salvation. Even if my dad did not experience that joy and that freedom, I was rescued out of a really worldly upbringing.

The Lord saw fitness to reach down and rescue this little girl who had no hope of any kind. And I'm humbled by that and just grateful that I was rescued and redeemed, even though I was in a context that didn't make that likely.

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Get one today because understanding the Bible Changes everything. And the NLT is the Bible you can understand. You lost your father and I lost my mother around the same time. So.

Sorry.

Yeah, I mean, it's weird being in. I don't want to say it's weird, but, you know, both. Both my parents are gone. And so there is this strange feeling where my sister's grandchildren.

My sister's. I'm the youngest, so my sister has her children or have children, so she's, you know, a grandmother.

And her grandchildren came to me and they said, can you tell me about when grandma was a little girl? And I thought, how old am I? Like, when did I get to this position of his family historian, that I'm the older generation here? That's not right.

Yeah, that's a weird thing.

It is a weird thing. It's very strange. Very strange. Don't like it. But let's get to your book. I want to talk about cultural counterfeits.

Now, I know you've got a couple of books out, and sometime we'll have to come back and talk about the other book, but today we're going to talk about cultural counterfeits. An award winner, by the way.

That's right.

Congratulations to you. Did you get a prize, like some stipend or what?

You know, just respect. That's pretty much what came with it. Just respect.

Is there, like, any formal awards presentation or is it just out on Facebook? You're like, oh, I want it.

No, it's just a social media post, you know, so you just gotta reshare that. That's about it.

You need, like, more recognition with that. There needs to be, like, an award ceremony at least, even online ward ceremony.

And, you know, in the book of the year according to tgc, goes to Jen Oshman.

I think. Yeah, we're just this little niche corner of Christian publishing. We're just. We're not quite like that.

I know, I know. But, hey. All right, so we have cultural counterfeits confronting five empty promises of our age and how we were made for so much more.

So I've read the book. I got a lot of questions, just so you know.

Okay, thanks for reading it. I appreciate you.

Well, I mean, would I not read it? Do you actually have people. Actually, I know that I know the answer because I talk to people all the time and they're like, yeah, I got interviewed.

No, they didn't even read the book. It happens. And they're, like, walking page by page, like, chapter one. What did you. Oh, the acknowledgments. You know, it's like, no. Come on.

So there's several things I want to hit, though. So let's start off with your questions. You got to be ready for these questions.

Okay, I'm ready.

So let me start off here. Let's hear about why you wrote the book. Let's hear that. Let's give me. Give me the impetus behind it. Why'd you write it?

Yeah, so I. Let's see my sweet spot. What I feel like is what the Lord made me to do when I feel his pleasure.

What drives me, what really drives, I would say most of my ministry is looking at our cultural landscape and interpreting it according to what scripture says. So I love to see culture, analyze it, and then apply the word of God to it.

And I have been in women's ministry now for well over 20 years, and I have loved and served many women, and it's just been the joy of my life to come alongside them, introduce them to Jesus, disciple them, be discipled by them, be in community with them. So this book is born out of a couple decades of walking alongside women and observing the cultural counterfeits that most easily ensnared them.

Ages, you know, maybe 15 to 70. Just what teen girls, young adult women, and mature women see in.

In our world, in society, and feel drawn to and give themselves over to consciously and subconsciously decisions that they make because of the cultural air they're breathing, that see that, you know, are winsome and draw them in and myself included. I see myself in every chapter that I wrote. I see my daughters, I see my friends, I see my mentors. We're all there. None. None is unscathed.

So I wanted to address the five.

The book could have been the 85 cultural counterfeits of our age, But I just went with the five that I felt like were the most pressing, the ones that I had seen be the most winsome, left the most carnage behind them, and just wanted to provide sociological data plus biblical truth. Here's why these counterfeits are lying to you. Here's the effect of giving yourself over to them, and then here is what is true in God's word.

We were made for so much more.

As the subtitle says, your grace will be enough. When my eyes can see what you have prepared for me, your grace will be enough. And strength is rising as I wait patiently. Your words, they comfort me.

Strength is right rising. Lift up your heads, you weary souls. Our God is not done yet. Our king will come with the morning light, bringing joy to the darkest of night.

So you've Said you boiled it down to these, these five. And you, as you said, it could be 85. So are these the issues that you think are the biggest obstacles for. For Christian women in the west today?

Maybe, yeah, I think they're the ones that. I don't know if they're the biggest obstacles. Maybe you could say it that way. They're the ones that right now just turn up over and over and over.

Well, one of the things that you wrote in the book that I really enjoyed, you actually quote quoted, you quoted him several times, Rodney Stark, the sociologist and hist who noted that one of the greatest gifts that Christianity gave its converts was its humanity. I thought it was very interesting as you wrote that in there. Why is that an important thing for women and just all of us really to know today?

I mean, why is that an issue that we need to be thinking about, like reconnecting with our humanity?

Yeah. So Rodney Stark, I love what he writes. It's so helpful.

He really opened my eyes to the early church, the first two centuries of the church, and how that really revolutionized the cultural landscape.

When Jesus came on the scene and invited the weak and the weary and the broken and the heavy laden to experience rest in him and invited us to love our enemies and to pursue the marginalized and the vulnerable that really revolutionized the Greco Roman world. And what we see in early Christianity is those who were on the margins really being drawn to Christ. Of course, those at every level, really.

I mean, we have. We see obviously the centurion and the wealthy and those in power as well being drawn to Jesus. But just women coming to him.

Because in the Greco Roman context, women were very much devalued, seen as property, really, to be used and disposed of as needed, not. Not wives to be cherished or women to be protected or baby girls to be cared for. And so women were really drawn to Jesus.

I love how Glenn Scrivener puts it in his recent book the Air We Breathe. He calls it the.

Hold on. Look at this. Look, look, look, look. It's so good he's coming on the show. Good.

Yeah. I think that's such an excellent book. Also a TGC award winning book. I He calls it the Jesus Revolution.

So that's what Rodney Stark opened my eyes to, is that early Christians were drawn to Jesus not only because of, but largely because of the humanity that was re instilled in them. That they were seen for the humans that they are. It's like the image of God was re seen. Re cherished, re treasured as it should be.

Women and girls are, again, largely commodified, largely viewed as only as valuable as they are sexy or sexually, you know, desirable or powerful in those ways. And they're. They're seen as objects rather than as humans to be cherished and treasured.

And so I love how he says, you know, Christianity brought their humanity back.

I want to communicate to women and girls in this book, you are humans created in the image of God, immeasurably valuable and full of dignity because of your creator, your maker, your savior.

I love how you did that. And you mentioned the five.

I'm going to make sure that I get these five right, because before we go on, because we're going to address them one by one. I leave. So we have Obsessed Bodies, Beauty and Ability. Two, Selling out for Cheap Sex. Six, Abortion Is Not Delivered. Seven.

I'm naming the chapters trending lgbtq, you, I, A plus, and then When Marriage and Motherhood Become Idols. So there's quite a bit there, even reading it, seeing how there. Those are the five, right? Am I making sure that I get that?

Those are the five? Those are the five I chose to write about.

Okay. I was making sure that I had them in my head correctly. So one of the questions that I had is, you start off in this.

Getting into the early on, you talk about the sexual revolution meets me, too. And there was a page. I think it was page 44. You brought up something that I'd never actually thought about.

But the way that you brought it out and you addressed something that I think many of us have lost today, and it's. I mean, why was that a big deal then?

I guess that's what I'm trying to figure out or helping our audience to understand, because I think it has implications for now as a corrective. So what. Why was it such a big deal then?

Yeah. Well, what we see in that case and then multiple cases that follow it as I list on that particular page, is the legalization of birth control.

So birth control is made then available to married couples and then subsequent cases. You know, it's made available to single people, it's made available to teens. And we just see it on down the line through history.

But the precedent that was set in that case is that the individual's pursuit of happiness includes the right to maintain privacy.

So if what you want to do to be happy is something that is a private matter, then the Constitution, then the Supreme Court decided that it's then protected. So prior to that, things like marriage and cohabitation and who you are having sex with and making babies with was a public matter.

Like there's some things that clearly should probably be ironed out in that way of thinking. But the point is, our country and our leaders and authorities understood that when you have sex, a baby results.

And that child, as well as the mother who carries it, are worth some protection and care. And so laws were created to provide for the care and protection of pregnant women and children.

So then when you start introducing things like birth control and then abortion and divorce and homosexual marriage, you know, that blows it all up. And there's no longer a legal structure that protects those who are the most vulnerable, which includes pregnant women and children.

So now you can have sex without consequence. Right. There doesn't have to be a family that brings up that child.

And we see all of the terrible consequences of that now as many, many marginalized women and children, not to mention those who've been lost to abortion.

So we have to go back and realize as a nation, we really prioritized autonomy and we legalized it in our code, saying it's a constitutional right to pursue whatever you want. And we're going to say that these are issues of privacy, and if that's what you need to do to make you happy, then it's legal.

But it's taking it out of the. I mean, it's putting it in the individual realm. But we lost the collective understanding of it and that public responsibility.

But I find that collective idea, that structure, that family structure is what I see so many people missing today. And that's why you get ideas like the modern family or family, who your friends are and read definitions of it.

But it still doesn't create the structures that we need to determine meaning and understanding who we are.

And that causes people to be in many ways shell shocked, like you mentioned, like their identity, these idols that are destroying people and families. And as you've said, you see that all the time. So it's become even a huge bigger, a greater understanding.

How do we then recapture this idea, I don't want to say of collective, but this, this idea of a responsibility that goes beyond individualism and it brings it back into the, the, I don't want to say just the family, but the body of Christ.

Like, how do we as Christians rediscover and embrace the structures that are necessary for the protection of the marginalized to ensure women being women and having that dignity and protected at the same time? Which we know, of course, the recent scandals hasn't always been the case, but how do we recapture that?

Yeah, my first book prior to cultural counterfeits is called Enough About Me. And it examines just the idol of self and that we live in the age of self.

And so I have a lot of sociological data there that bears out the reality that this self creation, self reliance, do it yourself, be yourself, decide who you are going to be yourself. That just idol of the autonomous individual, I think that it is not serving us well. I mean, the data bears this out.

Mental health is alarmingly terrible. Depression, suicide, women are not. Well, I write for women. I know that men are not either.

But the stats on female suicide and self harm and addiction are climbing. And they were climbing well before the COVID pandemic.

So it's evident that the more we have transitioned from a collective identity and a group identity in terms of family and culture and community, to deciding that we have to determine who we are and then we have to pull ourselves up by our bootstraps and make that person happen and then keep that cycle going. We simply weren't created to bear up under that weight. I mean, that is the work of God. That is not the work of frail humanity.

So to answer your question, how do we get back to that? I think we are going to have to go through probably collective burnout season where we as a people go, you know what?

This radical individual autonomy is not working. We are broken and we are exhausted and we need more. And so my exhortation and cultural counterfeits to the church is be ready.

You know, be a porch light in a dark night.

Be a place of welcome where people are drawn and attractive to the warmth and the care and just the hug that is available Literally and figuratively in your congregation and be ready. So I think, you know, Christians should not pull away from community involvement, but they should press into it and be ready. And I think it's coming.

I really do. I think it's coming.

You know, it's interesting. We had as a guest on the show, Michael Hendricks, who had written the book Other Half of Church, and we talk about a relational reformation.

And I had Kelly Capic on, and we were talking about the, you know, you're only human. That was his book. And talking about this humanity idea. You know, it's interesting.

We're trying to grasp for what our humanity is, is. And part of what we can do is help people embrace that.

And you're doing that with women by confronting the idols that these ladies, I don't want to say susceptible to. We're all susceptible to that, but have been easily enticed by now.

You mentioned, though, getting into this realm of sexual identity, and as you said in the book, sexual privacy. But you wrote something that I thought was very interesting.

On page 46, you said, consent is now our only boundary, our only law, because the autonomous self takes priority over the common good. Why is that the only boundary left? And what does that mean for us?

I. I think it's a train wreck. I mean, it's a train wreck.

Yeah.

You know, we are communal people. There's no not living in community. So when we seek out our own best preferences and we don't consider the needs of those around us, it just.

It's not going to go well for the other people or ultimately for us as we alienate ourselves and draw away from that communal perspective, then we experience isolation and suffer as well. So. So, you know, and a lot of secular writers are picking up on this now, which I'm so grateful for.

I see some really excellent books written by female authors out there that just criticize the fact that all we have left is consent, because it turns out consent outside of marriage is really gray, and not everybody agrees to what was consenting and what wasn't. Consenting. So even this consent, you know, line that we've drawn in the sand is really flimsy and it gets crossed over all the time.

And so, yeah, consent is flimsy. We actually need these, these systems and institutions and structures that give us freedom.

I know it's kind of a tiresome, you know, analogy, but it's the fish in water analogy, right? You know, a fish is not free when he's outside his fishbowl. He's dead.

But he is free when he's in water to move around and be who he was created to be. And so when we as communal people demand independence and autonomy in our way only over and above others and harming others, that's not freedom.

We will suffer outside of the way we were created. It doesn't go well for us.

I love the illustration. I know it's not unique to you. I mean, actually, I had no idea.

I had actually not seen the illustration where, if I remembered it, I went, that's so good. That was so good. Yeah. I was going to give you all the credit, but hey, no, not at all.

Going back for a moment on the individual versus communal you wrote, the story of humans has always been communal and never individual. We are a people who come from generations, who come from the dusty of the dust of the earth and the breath of God.

Who we are has everything to do with whose we are. We belong to the Lord, our Maker, and we belong to one another. Why is it so important for us to recover this communal nature?

Well, a line that I use over and over in the book that you might have noticed is human well being requires harmony with reality. So we will not be well if we don't walk in step with what is true and what is real. And the Lord made us communal from the start.

I mean, he is a communal God. Three persons in one. Father, Son and Holy Spirit. And that image is pressed upon us. And it was not good for Adam to be alone. And Eve was created.

We do belong to each other and we always have. This is nothing new. We were made for community, so we've got to embrace that.

And it's not just the United States, I think it's the west in general, the wealthy west, most, for the most part, much of Europe and then much of North America, because we have such extra income and wealth and health and security and safety and the options to pursue ourselves. We have the option to seemingly not need anybody else. And. And we know deep down at a heart level that's not really true.

But I can pursue my own lifestyle and pull into my own garage and go into my own house and just be with myself.

Whereas in other communities, other continents, other cultures, there's a need for your neighbor just for daily life and living and sustenance so that that they're walking in reality and we are not. So we do need to recover that.

Provocative words to end on. We were made for community. But in the wealthy west, we don't have to do community. At least that's what we think.

We go into our homes thinking that everything's great. We just drive in, we put on our TVs, our little Oasis, and we find ourselves so lonely.

You know, when we think about the subject of poverty, we think of resource poverty. That's what often comes to our mind in developing countries. But they might be resource impoverished, but they are relationally wealthy.

In our culture, we are resource rich, but we are relationally poor.

We don't realize that all of the things that we have, all of these great gifts, have actually separated us from one another and we really, truly need one another.

I can't help but think that the fact she lived in places where community was highly valued and then came back to the US has helped her to see the cultural counterfeits that perhaps we don't spot as easily. Part of our missio holistic approach is both embracing global voices and engaging our own culture.

And Jen's take reinforces to us that these two aspects are really intimately connected, like peanut butter and jelly. It struck me as I looked at the book that all five of the counterfeits that she talks about have direct impact on men as well as women.

It's just the expression that changes when we look at these things. When we interpret the cultural landscape through the eyes of God, as Jen says, we do more than just gain information.

We open ourselves up to be ready to be, as she said, the porch light on a dark night. And really that porch light, that welcoming presence that cares for those in need, is not just for those outside the church.

It is also for those on the inside who have inadvertently bought the counterfeit. We've had quite a few episodes about identity issues and who we are. Kelly Capek and Alan Noble were two great conversations discussing these topics.

If you haven't listened to them when it comes to the body or being embodied Christians, we talked to Nancy Pearcey and Tim Tennant and Sam Alberry, just to name a few. You. In our next episode, we continue the conversation with Jen, touching on the way we view sex and personhood.

We talk about the prodigal son, singleness, and the empty promise of purity. Wait, what? You'll have to tune in to our next episode to unravel that.

Make sure to check us out on our YouTube channel or connect with us through any of our social media pages. I wanted to thank our Apollos Water team team for helping us water today. This is Travis Michael Fleming signing off from Apollos Watered.

Stay watered, everybody.