#168 | Revelation Movement | Vishal Mangalwadi

It's watering time, everybody.

It's time for Apollo's Watered, a podcast to saturate your faith with the things of God so that you might saturate your world with the good news of Jesus Christ. My name is Travis Michael Fleming and I am your host. And today on our show, we're having another one of our.

Deep conversations.

Have you ever thought you were going to have a conversation? And it ended up taking an entirely different turn.

However, when we got into the conversation, it quickly took a turn in a direction that I was not anticipating. My guest today is Vishal Mangalwadi. Vishal is an intellectual, a Christian thinker.

He's from an Indian background, and he started talking about something that I wasn't anticipating. Now I know he's getting ready to do a tour of Canada, and so that was fresh on his mind as we are having our discussion.

So he's going to refer to Canada quite a bit in this conversation. Now, I want to say up front, this is probably the most controversial conversation that we've ever had on Apollo's water.

You know, oftentimes when we bring you people, we bring you content. It's people that we feel that you can trust.

And it's not that we don't think that you can trust Vishal, but oftentimes they're broadly evangelical and they're pretty close to our tribe.

And whenever we talk to people about subjects that they might vehemently disagree with us, say they're in our same theological stream, but they may not be in our same theological tribe, we like to focus on the issue in which we agree upon. However, in this conversation, we were going to talk about one issue and it quickly went in a direction, something that I did not anticipate.

And I'm going to say up front, I'm not sure if I agree with him on every one of his conclusions, because I'm still processing everything that he had to say. And I hope to be able to do an episode in the very near future, future, unpacking some of the statements that he's made.

By his own admission, this was probably the most stark and bold he has ever been on a podcast in making statements about the current way the evangelical church educates believers and the state of the evangelical church and in the issues that have affected the evangelical church and actually have caused a detrimental effect to this day. And again, let me say up front, I'm not sure if I agree with him entirely.

And you'll kind of hear me on the show in our conversation processing, because again, that wasn't what I was intending to talk about. That's not what I intended to prepare for.

But it's still a conversation that I want you to hear, because when we interact with people that are just like us, we'll never be challenged and we'll never know the validity of our beliefs, the authenticity of them. You know, it's been said that orthodoxy is defined once it encounters heterodoxy.

And I'm not saying that he's not orthodox, he is an orthodox Christian.

But his view of things, his view of understanding the role of Christian education, how we got our universities today, where things went wrong, and really his conception of the Great Commission is going to be a great challenge for you. In the first part of the conversation, we do talk a little bit about his bio, how he became a believer in Jesus and some of the work that he's done.

And then you're going to see a transition where he starts talking about the third education revolution. It's going to be a challenge. Let me just say that straight up. But I want you to pay attention to what he says because he is an important thinker.

And if what he says is true, then that is going to be jarring. And we need to make that change.

If it's not, then we need to be able to articulate why and delve down deeply because he is a deep thinker who is well respected around the world. And we need to be able to respect that, honor that, and then wrestle with some of the statements that he is making.

It's a good conversation and it's a challenging one. And it's one that I'm excited for you to check out. So here's my conversation with Vishal Mangawati. Happy listening. Welcome to Apollo's Water.

Thank you. What an honor.

The honor is all ours, brother. The honor is all ours. Are you ready for the Fast Five?

Sure.

I guess you've written about pop culture quite a bit over the years. So what is your favorite movie or Netflix series of all time?

Well, the last Netflix series I saw was the Last Kingdom. And that's about how Christian England won over the Viking paganism.

It's conflict of primitive early Christianity in England versus heathenism paganism, which is coming from Scandinavia, that conflict. So I enjoyed it. My wife wouldn't watch it because it's too violent, some adult scenes. So I had to watch it after she goes to bed.

I could see why you would like that though. This specifically, the development, the changing, the confluence of cultures. I. I can understand that. Number two. Yes, go ahead, go ahead.

No, it was very interesting that all the power was with the pagans. Two things with the Christians in England was a scholarship.

The king was spending all his time in his scriptorium where a number of scribes are writing everything. So they had books just like you have books behind you. That was one thing. The second thing was marriage. That Christians had marriage.

And the wife, the queen comes across as a very difficult person. But in the end she's a blessing to the whole nation and the development of these kingdoms, becoming one nation.

So one of the messages of the whole series, it's a very long series, was that Christianity won because of scholarship and because of marriage. Even the supernatural power of witchcraft, sorcery, black magic, these were with the pagans.

How about this? You've traveled a lot all around the world. The place you enjoy traveling the most is where and why.

Well, I loved Mauritius because of the ocean, where you can swim long distance in the ocean. It's the waves don't come because of the geography. The mountains stop the waves.

So you have a ocean is a huge still lake around Mauritius because the food is very good. Right now Mauritius is because of. Much of the corruption in India is coming from shell companies based in Mauritius as a tax haven.

So lots of Indians dislike Mauritius right now. But I enjoyed being there. Yeah. For natural beauty. Because the British had. This is interesting because Mauritius was.

Is next to Africa, but Africans knew nothing about it until the British discovered the island and inhabited. So they brought a lot of Indians for plantation etc into Mauritius.

So Mauritius has a very large Indian community, but it's quite a mixed community with Africans and Europeans and Indians. Yep.

Wow. I've known about the country, but I didn't know that part of the history of it, which is very enlightening. All right, well, here's the next question.

What's the one thing about India that you could bring to the west and why?

I think the respect for parents and family would be one important aspect of Indian culture.

This is interesting because Hindu marriage and all, in fact, legally all of Indian marriages within different communities except Islam are directly impacted by the Bible. So Islam had limited four wives to a man, but Hinduism had no such limit.

One of our gods, Krishna, had 14,000 wives and the female that is worshipped with him, Radha is not his Wife, she's his consort, etc. So this was the typical polygamy where the wife is a property.

The in the big epic of Mahabharata, the five righteous brother, they gamble their wife away in a gambling match and cruiser. She's a property. She can be used for gambling. But all of this was changed by the Bible. Around. Excuse me.

Middle of the 18th century, Indian, Christian, Indian Hindu thinkers began to say that the reason England has been able to colonize as a tiny island, sending just a few thousand people colonize us and keeping us as a colony for so long, it's because an Englishman has only one wife. If we want to catch up with the west, we have to change our marriage laws and have only one wife. But it took 105 years.

That would be one part of Indian culture that is important.

Now, what is the strangest food you've ever eaten and why?

Well, we were. Where was in Colombia recently, Bruce Friesen and I. He's a Canadian and there was the big Ant fright. Crispy big ants in. In Colombia. Yes, yes, yes.

So that was strange. So I did eat one or two and gave the rest to Bruce. Did he eat them? Yes, yes, he loved them. They were tasty.

What do they taste like?

Good question. I suppose the small little fish which is fried. The. What do you call them when they're really crispy? They like a shrimp or something like that.

Well, you could. No, they're more crispy than shrimp. There's less, much less meat. And you eat the whole thing. Yes. This is called Big Ants.

They sell them on the street vendors.

Oh, okay. That is a new one. I've never had anyone tell me they've eaten ants. I mean bugs, yes, but an ant, no. Okay, so number five, how about this?

If your life was a Netflix series, what would be the title of it and who would play you?

Well, I think the directors and the casting directors will have to choose who plays me. But I haven't heard about anybody making a film on my life. But I want to make a lot of films myself.

In fact, that's the reason we came to America, that we did one brief documentary on the Bible, Logos and literacy.

It is Jordan Peterson's film, Logos and literacy, which we filmed at the Museum of the Bible, where the argument is that the biblical concept of logos and the Bible itself is the source of intellectual life of the modern world. Literacy itself, promotion, universalization of education, etc. We need about 100 more documentaries like that to show like.

These days, Jordan Peterson is often talking about that there would have been no modern science without the Bible. And he's right. And that his insight comes from that book, the book that made your world.

I have a whole chapter on science, the origin of science, origin of technology, but the book begins with a discussion of music. So the Bible's impact in all of life, that the Bible created the modern world.

That's a series that I would like to make and it will be wonderful to have someone like Jordan Peterson in that series and other intellectuals that you and I know. But I would like to have more. More of a content control over content, not the direction of the film.

Because it's important to see that the Bible had the kind of impact it had because it was perceived as truth, not a story. So once you perceive the Bible as a collection of stories, it does not have the authority a story does not have.

It can be believed, but it does not have an authority over you. But the Bible had an impact because it was perceived as God's word and therefore truth. So truth should be the basis of all of life.

So back to the documentary series.

If the Lord made it possible, I would like to make at least 20, 30 episodes, one hour each on exploring all of modern life, including what we just talked about. Family. Why should one man have only one spouse? Why not two spouses? If I'm bisexual, I sometimes attracted to a man, sometimes to a woman.

Why can't I marry both a man and a woman to have two spouses?

The idea that God made one Eve for one Adam is the basis for monogamy, which homosexuals have accepted that yes, we should have only one legal spouse at a time, but. So they might say that a man does not have to marry a woman. He can marry a man, but why should it be limited to one?

You are still controlled by the Bible, and rightly or wrongly. But so discussing what did the Bible's concept of marriage do to the world, particularly from Indian perspective?

I'd like to go the history of how India changed from polygamy to monogamy for Hindus and other religious communities, not for Muslims, but and the significance of why Indian intellectuals, 200 years ago, 175 years ago, had come to the conclusion that the west became stronger. A tiny island such as England became stronger than India because an Englishman had only one wife.

So those things need to be the Bible's impact on the modern world with all the ridicule that Western intellectuals have heaped upon the Bible.

So I would like to play a role myself in such a series, because it was actually Os Guinness who first said to me, when I discussed this with him, he said to me, yes, you should make the series, but you should be the one speaking because this is your thesis. You have to take responsibility for it and present it and then defend it. So.

So if I was making such a series, which I would love to, I will like to play myself, not. Not because I am necessarily the best in representing my views.

There are a number of other people who are now presenting my research in much better ways, and one of them, of course, is Jordan Peterson that he's presenting. Many of his arguments for the Bible are coming from my book.

Although we see the Bible differently, he sees it as a Jungian psychologist, intellectual, and I see it more historical perspective that this is the Bible had the kind of impact it had because it was believed to be God's word truth, which I to believe is the case.

We're going to take a quick break and hear a word from our sponsors and we'll be right back. The most important Bible translation is the one you read at Apollos Watered.

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Get one today because understanding the Bible changes everything. And the NLT is the Bible you can understand. Give us a little bit of your biography, where you grew up in your faith journey and what brought you to.

This point in time. Yeah, well, I. I came to Christ when I was a teenager struggling with my habit of Lying and stealing.

I had become conscious that I was stealing from the time I was six, six and a half years old, and lying about it. But by the time I was 13, 14, the habit of lying had become bad because I was losing friends.

I would lie when there was nothing to be gained from lying, when telling the truth would have been just as good. But I'll do it for teasing people, fooling people. And I hated myself and I hated my habit.

And I would meditate to acquire willpower, the power of positive thinking, that kind of thing, to overcome my habit of lying.

And I repeatedly failed until one gentleman who was with child evangelism, fellowship kind of group, he explained to me that lack of willpower is not your problem. You are a very stubborn person. Your problem is a disease. It's called sin.

The good news is that there is a Savior, someone who can actually save you from your sin. And what you have to do is to confess, repent, and ask him. Tell him that you can't save yourself from your bad habit.

Because sin is not just what you do. Sin is a spiritual power. As God says to Ken that sin is crouching at the door and desires to have power over you.

So you have become a slave of this habit of stealing. And lying is by stealing, I mean shoplifting, minor things. You become a slave of these habits because sin is power, powerful spiritual force.

It rules your heart. But Jesus came, set you free. So I became a Christian as a teenager.

And the philosophers that I was studying, they didn't believe the Bible. Our focus began with Western philosophy before going into ancient philosophy and Indian philosophy.

So our professors didn't believe in the Bible and the philosophers didn't. So why should I follow my pastors rather than university teachers who were a lot more brilliant at that time?

I confused between amount of information that a person has with amount of wisdom that a person has. A person who read very widely and would quote many philosophers. It seemed to me that he was a wise person.

I didn't realize that philosophers can be quite foolish and professors can be quite foolish. Particularly now in Canada, where they don't know what is a woman, if a student is a boy or a girl.

And here in America, they are arguing that a child's gender or sex should not be written on the birth certificate because the doctors who delivered the baby can't know what the gender or sex is until the child actually chooses as a teenager what gender he or she would be. So the most learned people can be quite stupid. But at that time I didn't know. So I decided that I cannot honestly say that I believe the Bible.

And if I don't believe the Bible, what happens to who is Jesus, etc. It was easy to doubt the Bible, but the difficult question was, what then do you believe?

And I decided that I'm going to believe what the best philosophers and scientists believe. Okay, so what do they believe is the truth? So I began to review my entire course on philosophy.

This is undergraduate course in philosophy, this time not to pass an examination, but to understand what different philosophers are actually saying and thinking about the truth.

That the human mind is incapable of knowing truth. So how can we know the truth Became a question.

And it became very clear to me that as the Buddha said, we are like five blind men trying to make sense of an elephant. And I'm holding the leg and saying, elephant is like a pillar. And you are saying, no, no, no, no, I'm feeling the elephant.

It's like a wall because you're feeling the stomach. And the third person says that, no, you're both men, how can you know the truth? I'm holding the elephant.

Elephant is like a rope because she is holding the tail. So we fight amongst each other.

We shouldn't be fighting because actually all of us have the truth, but it's a relative truth relative to our experience of the elephant. But in fact, all of us are wrong because none of us have the real truth. So how can we know the truth?

It became clear that we cannot know the truth unless there is a sixth person who is not blind and who knows and who can tell me that you think elephant is like a pillar or a tree because you're holding the leg. If you move up three feet, four feet, you can feel the wall part of the elephant, which is actually the stomach, etc.

So if I begin to do what he's telling me, I realize that he or she is different than the five of us who are blind. So unless there is someone who knows and can reveal. We cannot know the truth. We can just fight with each other.

Or the most powerful person enforces his ideas, his mythology upon everyone else. So there is intellectual totalitarianism. So is there a God who knows the truth? Has he spoken?

That really began my intellectual quest at the age of about 20. And I decided that I'll begin by reading Hindu scriptures.

Because our professors had been really praising the Hindu Vedas, the original Hindu ideas like the Torah. And I went to the bookshops to buy a copy of the Vedas in Hindi.

And the Hindu publishing houses told me that nobody translates and publishes the Vedas because they are. If you want to know the Vedas, learn the Vedas. You have to find a guru, sit at his feet for 14 years, he will tell you.

Because the meaning of the Vedas is not important. They can't be translated. The sound of the Vedas is the mantra.

And you have to learn correct pronunciation, enunciation, intonation, and when to put the ghee, the butter, melted butter in the fire for these sounds of the Vedas to become powerful. So I had studied Sanskrit as a young boy, but I said, well, right now I'm not interested in studying in a language, a language and memorizing.

I want to know if the Vedas have the truth and if the Hindus are saying that Vedas cannot be translated. Of course they are now available, at least sections of them, portions of them. But at that time, 50 years ago, they were not 52 years ago.

So I was in a Muslim town, Allahabad. Its name has now changed, but it was established by Akbar, the Mughal emperor said this was began as a Muslim town.

And I decided to buy a Quran in Hindi or English or Urdu.

And the Muslim shopkeepers told me that Quran is not translated, it cannot be translated because it existed in heaven in Arabic and was revealed in Arabic. So if you want to study the Quran, you have to study Arabic. So I said, it'll be nice to know a classical language.

But at this moment I'm interested in knowing the truth that is Quran really God's word. If it is God's word, why it's not available in my language in a city like this? So it was my older sister who asked me to read the Bible.

And I said that I've read the Bible and its childish stories. So she said, no, no, no, you were a child when you read the Bible.

Now you think you are a philosopher, so you go back and reread it and see if it is God's word.

So I began reading the Bible and it was the historical books, particularly Kings and Chronicles, that convinced me that the Bible is actually God's word. The at first, you know, Genesis was interesting, Exodus was okay. Leviticus was boring.

By the time I came to Judges and Ruth, it was morally repulsive, the book. And by the.

I was really fed up by the time I came to Kings and Chronicles, long list of kings who did evil in the sight of the Lord and he killed them. Why am I, as an Indian teenager, I've already become 20 by then. Why am I reading this Jewish history when I do not know enough about Indian history?

So I was ready to close the Bible once and for all. But something intrigued me that Indian history is always telling us how good, great, glorious, wonderful our ancestors were.

This is a Jewish book, and it's telling me how rotten the Jewish leaders and kings and priests were. So obviously, this is not a court history. Kings didn't commission historians to write about their fathers and grandfathers.

Okay, so this must be a religious history of the Jews. Priests wrote it because in India, there's always conflict between Brahmins and the rulers, the priestly class and the ruling class.

So priests must have written it. So I began looking again at Kings and Chronicles, and I said, no, no, no.

This book is telling me that the priests were corrupt, the temple was corrupt. God hated his temple and destroyed it. He said that your religious deeds are like filthy rags.

So it's not political history, it's not religious history. Then it must be subaltern history, written from the point of view of the little people who are exploited both by political and religious leaders.

So is it?

And I went back to begin to turn pages, and I was shocked that these biblical books, Jewish books, were more anti Semitic than anything Hitler could have written. They were saying that every Jew was an idolater, an adulterer, a liar, this, that and the other.

They were really critical of the Jews that God hated this chosen nation. He killed them, send them into slavery, destroyed their cities in the nation.

Okay, so then this must be the work of the prophets, because prophets love to hate everybody. So I began turning the pages again. Now, I already know that this is a very boring book. Kings and Chronicles, these are very boring books.

But within two months, I'm reading those books for the fifth time. And then I begin to say, no, the books are saying that the majority of the prophets were false prophets and the good ones were the losers.

They tried to save their nation like you trying to save Canada. They couldn't save themselves. They were beaten up and imprisoned and thrown into cistern and killed, etc. They couldn't save themselves.

But their words eventually, after Daniel with Israel and Haggai and Zechariah and Nehemiah did rebuild the nation.

And those post exilic books in the Bible became fascinating on the theme, which is very important to you, of rebuilding a ruined republic, how was Israel rebuilt?

So those prophets, those books are there in the Bible, even though they are anti Semitic books, they are there in the Jewish Bible because on the basis of those prophets, the nation was rebuilt. So it became very clear that the book is in fact claiming to be God's word. Whether it is or it is not is another matter.

The book is claiming to be God's word, God's interpretation of Jewishism history. And that raised the question that even if it is God's interpretation of Jewish history, why am I as an Indian reading it?

What does it have to do with me?

And that question changed the trajectory of my life because it made sense of all that I was reading in the Bible that God called this man Abraham, that you follow me, I will bless you. I will make you a great nation. Through you I will bless all the nations, Canada and India included. I will bless all the nations.

I will bring healing to these nations. So is this God's word? Did God really say to Abraham that if you follow me, I will bless India? Has he blessed India? Has he kept his promise?

That began my inquiry into how modern India was created. And I have written three or four books on the subject already.

And another book is coming called how the Bible created modern India, in which now about 30 different writers have been collaborating. We have met for the previous 97 weeks. We meet every Thursday to explore how the Bible created modern India.

And then I began to look at what else has this book done. And out of that came these two books. The book that made your world, how the Bible created the soul of Western civilization.

And the second is called this book changed Everything. The Bible's amazing impact on our world. And these have triggered a series of other books in Europe.

The two books are being planned about how the Bible's impact on Central Europe and Bible's impact on Nordic Europe.

And we need to do one book for North America, the Bible as the soul of North America, another book on Africa and Korea, the Bible's impact, how this book. So going into details in geography. So that was a long version of my short biography of how I became interested in this whole subject.

That the Bible as the book that was translated, the most published, the most distributed, the most Studied the most. If you go into Artisan and Cambridge, half of the PhD thesis are on the Bible. That used to be the number one subject 50 years ago. Now it's not.

But still, roughly 50% of all the PhD thesis are really on the Bible. So how did this book, what impact did all of this have in shaping, shaping the world?

And if the Canadian intellectuals are keen to cut their own roots, cut the roots of their own civilization, then it was, I think, one of the British writers during World War II who wrote that we had been sawing on the branch on which we were sitting, and we thought that when this branch falls, we will be falling on the bed of roses, flowers. But we've actually fallen on bobbed wires. Because amputation of the soul is not a simple surgery like taking out your appendix.

But amputation of your soul goes septic and is wounded and is destroying the Western world because the west has intellectual west has amputated its own soul, which was the Bible.

So that's basically the thesis of these books and these studies and the practical application of these books into the third education revolution, that if Canada has to be saved, Canadian church has to take education back from the state.

The fools who are running the universities who do not know what is male and what is female, what is love and what is marriage and what is sex, what is justice and what is a nation. If you let them keep educating the next generation, you destroy your future. So the. The church still has the capacity to disciple nations.

The Western church, at least in the usa, but the Western church, North American church, does not have a theology for discipling nations. And that's what the third education revolution is changing. Giving a theology and a strategy of how to disciple these nations.

Ended up staring in the bathroom mirror, crying on your bedroom floor, baby, you can take my word. So tell us more about this third revolution that you're talking about. I want to understand this a little bit more in depth.

I met with their leaders, 240 leaders for five days. In 50 years, the church had grown exponentially, but it had trained a lot of leaders, but no one had formal theological or secular education.

Education was not important because Jesus was coming very soon. And we began studying passages such as Isaiah 11, John 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, that is God going to baptize us with a spirit of irrationality?

Or did he promise that he would baptize the church with spirit of truth, which is the spirit of wisdom, knowledge, understanding, counsel, might. Fear of the Lord. A wise person is one who delights at the fear of the Lord.

If Uganda is as corrupt as it is, it is because their leaders, their civil servants, it's 80, 90% Christian, do not have the fear of the Lord. His education is not cultivating the fear of the Lord. It is cultivating a spirit of mockery and defiance, as it is doing in the West.

Because the Western university is training all the intellectuals that are running Uganda's educational system. So without the fear of the Lord, the education system is breeding corruption and corrupt people.

So after five days of Bible study talk consideration, the denomination decided that they would like every single church to become a center of education. Because you do not have the resources, government does not have the resources to build school in every village in a valley, in a remote jungle.

But one university, one school system can send the best curriculum to the poorest village, remotest village, using the satellite where a cell phone can work, a curriculum can happen. So the poorest student can study under the best teachers with curriculum being available for free.

What he or she needs is a homeschooling mother, father, which in our case we are calling church school. An academic pastor because most parents are illiterate, they have to work. They cannot be educating the kids.

But they can leave the kids in the church. Girls can walk to the church and they can. The church can have an academic pastor. So education began as a ministry of the church in Europe.

In, in the Old Testament, if you were going to be a priest, you had to be born into a Levite family, particularly Aaron's family. But the New Testament, every believer has become a child of God to serve his father, her father.

That makes you a priest and you're managing God's kingdom. God's will cannot be done on earth unless people know God's will and are trained, have the character to obey the Lord, to do God's will.

So to manage God's kingdom as kings, prince and princesses, as sons and daughters of the living God. Who is the king of kings? He is the king of kings means that we are kings.

Because Luther was taking the power of the priests and giving it to the people. Europe at that time, the difference between clergy and laity was very strong. The clergy got the wine and the bread in Holy Communion.

Non clergy got only the bread. Wine was for the priests. But if everyone is priests and king, everyone should get red wine. Everyone should sing. So every child must learn to sing.

And therefore singing should not be in Latin, singing should be in German. That was part of the intellectual revolution that came with the understanding of kingship and priesthood of all believers.

So Luther began universalized education. Universities had existed for 450 years. Bologna was the first university in Italy, which was Law university.

France had Montpelier the second university, which was medical university. So the Church, the Roman Catholic Church, invented the institution of the university.

And Luther was teaching in a Roman Catholic university in Wittenberg.

So university was a move in all the universities until that point, before four and a half centuries were granted their license by the popes or by bishops under pope's authority. So university was a movement of the institution.

Once the second education revolution began with Luther, with the Reformation, education remained a ministry of the Church. That's why the ministry of education still called it ministry, because it was a ministry of the Church.

The universities such as Oxford and Cambridge, where Augustinian monasteries. University of Paris was a cathedral school that grew into the university. So that's in North America.

116 of the first 118 universities and colleges were established by the Church.

And his heart of his argument was that if the church educates, Church will teach divisive doctrines such as Trinity. So church should not educate, State should educate. Bible should be taught, but not for truth, not for divisive doctrines, but for morality.

Like children need to learn how to honor their father and their mother and not to covet the pencils and books of the food of their friends, etc. So you should not commit, you should not steal, you should honor your father.

of North America. Because Dewey was brilliant developing his experimental idea of education and training teachers out of Chicago.

And after World War I, I guess it was after World War I, when he was still there in Chicago University, Hutchins was the president. Morgan Adler came and began the Great Books Program in Chicago University.

So both the philosophy of education and the idea of creating a new canon of Great Books, which was Adler's and Hutchins contribution, that replace the biblical canon with a canon of Great Books of Western civilization. Dewey was a pragmatist. He was not a Unitarian. He was a pragmatist.

And his argument was that there's no need to teach the Bible to teach students to honor their father and their mother. Because the law, moral law, is written in everyone's heart. It is common sense.

It is pragmatic truth that yes, children should honor their father and their mother and all those in authority, etc. So common sense pragmatism is sufficient to teach moral values. And therefore there is no need to teach the Bible.

And he invoked the doctrine of separation of church and state to apply it to the realm of education. Because church and state are legally separate in the United States, this public education should not teach the Bible.

So this is how the ministry of Education, which was ministry of the Church, became a ministry of the state separated from the Bible. Because the Great Books canon that Adler promoted, championed from Chicago University, he knew himself. By the end. He became a Christian.

He was a liberal Jew who became a Christian at the age of 84, after he retired. But of course, he was impacted by Thomas Aquinas. He began his studies with Aristotle and followed Aquinas.

And in the end he became a Christian because he realized that the humanist canon cannot really cultivate the fear of the Lord.

Bible is the first great canon collection of 66 books that have been given authority, whose authority is self evident and therefore recognized by the Church as authoritative truth. But the Bible is a unique book in which, as you study it, it cultivates the fear of the Lord.

You are baptized with the spirit of wisdom, which delights at the fear of the Lord, which is the heart, which is the source of a superior moral integrity in running governments and running government offices, bureaucracy, civil services, police, military journalism. That is still there in the West. But in our countries we don't trust our police. We no longer trust Our politicians, our civil servants.

Because now for two generations, three generations, the secularized education has been undermined. The fear of God. So it's greed, vested interest, corruption, corruption of the human heart which runs our societies.

So sorry for taking so long, but your question was what is this third education revolution?

The third education revolution, in short and starting with what happened in Uganda, is to create a virtual wisdom village in Metaverse where both in 2D and in 3D, where the world's best curriculum can be provided for free to everyone. No student has to pay anything for studying the core K through 12.

Financially it will be supported by teachers because a mother who is teaching 1, 2, 3, 4 or ABCD to her kid and the rhymes, nursery rhymes, etc. She will be the one coming on our website learning how to teach her children. And she will get, she will be enrolled at the university level.

If she already has a high school, she will get a bachelor BA in Applied Theology and Education. If she already has a Bachelor's degree, she will get MA in Applied Theology and Education.

Because she's teaching the word of God and she's teaching knowledge, trivium and quadrivium, the numbers and the words, the language. She's so. So we will have to have a billion church based schools. We need four or five million academic pastors.

These are pastors who are not just professional teachers who are giving a lecture, but who care for the students. You know, if a student is bullied and drops out of the school, you don't expect a public school teacher to go and find that sheep that is lost.

But a Shepherd leaves the 99, goes to find the sheep that is lost, brings that sheep back into the fold and takes care that this weaker sheep is not bullied and not chased away from learning. So restoring the teaching ministry to the church where it belonged.

Now why did the Western church give up education to the state is a different discussion. But this is empowering the global church in, in Asia, in Africa, in South America, to educate their nations on the basis of God's word.

As you educate law, talking right now of starting a law college, online law college in India, but also civil servants, I suppose British Canadian system is very similar to Indian system where you become a senior civil servant through a competitive exam. And so you have to prepare, you attend coaching classes to prepare. So you take a whole year or six months to prepare for those exams.

And the churches should be running those coaching classes. So we provide the curriculum to the church and two, three, four students in every church come together to prepare for those competitive exams.

But the students also come to the church to study law.

With all the injustices that the police and the politicians and the press is inflicting upon the Indian church, we need to take the law education back, because the law has to be rooted in God's law if the nation has to be just and righteous. So the third education is an attempt to take education back from the state.

Now, with Metaverse, for example, no student needs to actually physically go into a medical university to learn how to deliver a baby or how to do brain surgery. You can watch a thousand videos of brain surgery on Metaverse.

So you are actually in the theater and you're looking at brain surgery or heart surgery.

Now, when you actually have to do physically for experiment, for practicals, then you of course have to be physically there where the patient is when the other surgeons are. But the theory can be taught in every church. You can watch a thousand deliveries, how to deliver babies, and then do practical in the local hospital.

So you enroll in a Christian medical university, but you do practical in the local hospital delivering baby. And when you have delivered 50 babies under supervision of your superiors, you get certified that now you have learned how to be a gynecologist, etc.

So this is an attempt to equip the poorest church to offer the best education that the world can offer at this moment and utilize the available educational technology to prepare every church to have an academic pastor.

Now, if it's possible, to begin with an academic pastor, a man or a woman who has only fifth grade education, but as he or she is teaching children 1, 2, 3, 4, and 2 plus 2 equals 4, he or she will get a high school diploma and then a bachelor's degree and then a master's degree. So. And they would pay a little bit for that.

But the church has the capacity, although right now it does not have the vision or the theology of why the church should be educating, but the church has the capacity to do so. I know that there is nothing stopping me, no physical presence that I can't see. Oh, there's nothing in my way there's nothing in my way.

There'S nothing in.

My way there's nothing in my way.

How do we help our people to see the overarching concept that really what we're doing is making disciples? And that means a lifelong process of helping them grow when they seem to be addicted with just getting them to pray, the prayer and move on.

How do we help people to see the holistic nature of how the Bible permeates every facet of their life if we're ever going to recover, cover any type of renewal and influence of the church in the West.

Well after the Reformation, catechism was the main tool that the Protestant movement, Lutheran, Anglican, Reformed, the catechism was the factor that created the soul of a nation.

But Germany was Lutheran, but Heidelberg had become Calvinist and they had improved upon the Luther's and Geneva the catechism. So every child has to memorize Heidelberg Catechism, which includes the Ten Commandments, the Lord's Prayer, the Apostles Creed, etc.

And applies the Catechism and said Ten Commandments to all of life. You shall not steal, you shall not covet, you shall rest on the Sabbath. These are economic commands, but so is the command against nature worship.

Idol worship is an economic command that you are not to worship a river because you are supposed to establish your dominion over the river or the earth or over the mountain or whatever the trees. So Luther wrote the Shorter Catechism, and then he wrote the Large Catechism. Large Catechism was actually teacher's manual.

Every pastor who is teaching, helping students memorize catechism, he is studying the Large Catechism. What does it mean that you shall not steal?

Well, it means that you will give your tithes and offerings, because when you're not giving your tithe, you're robbing God. So larger Catechism is applying the Ten Commandments and the Apostles Creed, etc. Etc. To all of life.

So the last catechism was the teacher's first teacher's manual in Germany. Then, of course, the catechism was improved in Geneva and then in Heidelberg and then in Westminster in England.

And it was the Westminster Confession which helped shape Canada as the foundation, an interpretation or summary of the Bible which gives meaning to life, meaning to ethics and morality, and the content of ethics, etc.

And the foundations, like the foundation of freedom, the belief in conscience, which comes now, the conscience has become very important for Jordan Peterson in Canada in your city, because what is conscience? Why does it have authority? Is it really the supernatural voice within the human heart? Or is it cultural conditioning?

If it is cultural conditioning that I should not commit adultery, why should I submit to my culture? Is conscience a superior moral force planted in my heart?

Which allows me to critique my parents, my government, and therefore the government must respect the freedom of conscience. When a journalist speaks, or a politician speaks, et cetera. Writer writes.

So these issues have been traditionally, Canada respected the freedom of conscience because the soul of Canada was shaped by Westminster confession, where Chapter 20 is entirely devoted to the question of conscience, which had of course begun with Luther, the whole Reformation. Here I stand and I shall not recant because my conscience is captive to the word of God that was the heart.

Luther's biblical idea that the church and church councils and popes have often been wrong and therefore they cannot have the authority to bind my conscience. My conscience is bound to the word of God.

But that actually liberates me to critique my church, to critique my government, critique the authorities, etc.

So this idea of individual freedom coming from my surrender to the truth, captivity to the truth, that I don't conform to my culture, but I reform my culture. So these, these ideas that shaped nations such as Canada, made it a free and just nation, came from the Bible.

But your question is where do we go from here? And the answer is if the church takes education back.

Now it could be that in a church the economic condition is such that one parent, say a husband can support the whole family and wife therefore can devote her time to teach.

Or both husband and wife work part time so that one person is always there with the children and for the first time years of their lives until they learn how to self study, steady themselves. So it's home based, they still need to go for some things to a more corporate thing.

So like for learning how to debate, you go to the church, you can't do that just in your own family. How to paint, you might have to go to painter. If the parents are not painters, you may have to go to church.

So the church should become the community where the families are bringing their children at least few times a week to learn music. Or if the church has someone with horses, horse riding, things like that.

So parents can do what they can do, grandparents and uncles and aunts can get involved that okay, once a week the grandparent will be the teacher where both the parents are working. So the home school will keep running. But in many situations it's not possible for both the either of the parents to be teachers.

Because if there is only one single parent family and that parent has to work to feed and clothe the children, and then the children being left in the church and church organizing micro schools, micro colleges, micro universities.

Because today you can have a university with three students if the curriculum is coming online and one of the elders is overseeing that, these three students are actually studying what they're supposed to be studying. So technologically, economically, it's possible today for the church to take education back.

But by education, I don't mean simply the formal education. Take for example, encyclopedia. Most Christians no longer know that encyclopedia was a Christian idea.

Francis Bacon was one of the first who talked about it. The person who really championed the concept of encyclopedia was John Amos Kamenius, who is called the father of modern education.

And the war had so beacon both the Protestants and the Roman Catholic churches that the Church could not take on this proposal to create an encyclopedia, collect all knowledge.

And therefore the French Revolution, actually the French Enlightenment took on the Protestant idea of the encyclopedia and created the first encyclopedia. So from the very beginning, the encyclopedia became a secular movement.

There were great encyclopedias such as Encyclopedia Britannica, but they've all become redundant because of technology and Wikipedia.

But unfortunately, Wikipedia has so surrendered to the dominant anti Christian ideologies that it has become Wikipedia in many senses, that if you believe that marriage is between one man and one woman, you cannot be an editor for Wikipedia because it's censoring what you think is right and true and it's enforcing an ideology through it. So a fifth grade student, eighth grade student is using Wikipedia to write projects and essays. Now, if they begin to chat, GPT, etc.

These new artificial intelligence, they are fed by Wikipedia.

So a part of the third education revolution is to mobilize Christian or Christ honoring the word of God, honoring intellect around the world to create a new encyclopedia where someone who has specialized in a small little topic and can write 100 words, thousand words that's posted. If not words, make podcasts and documentaries, which is posted on our online encyclopedia, which is for free. So that.

And if there is differences of opinion and differences of belief, there should be behind the main entry invitation to join the ongoing debate between the experts.

So this is part of the third education revolution to galvanize the global body of Christ to fill the earth with the knowledge of God, the wisdom of God, the wisdom that cultivates the fear of God, which is what the Bible does, in contrast to the great books which came out of Chicago University, which is humanist canon, which if you don't live by the fear of God, you end up having to Live with the fear of man, which is authoritarianism or totalitarianism. The man controls and the culture controls. Your conscience robs you of your freedom to critique your country and your culture.

And in fact, our trip to Canada is sponsored by the Canadian Truth and Transformation Organization.

This is still a loose connection of highly thoughtful, mature leaders both on east coast and west coast who are organizing truth and transformation Canada. Because if Canada is to be transformed again, it is truth that will transform. Therefore, truth has to be taught truth.

We have to bear witness to the truth. Truth has to be taught.

So that's a group is emerging in Canada, it's emerging in North America, in Central Europe, in Nordic Europe, but we already have a very strong group in India, in South America, etc. Koreans are ahead in action. Indonesia are ahead.

The Truth and Transformation Organization in Canada is part of the third education revolution.

So basically what you're calling for is a renewal for churches to go back to this idea of controlling education for their people.

Yes, I can expand on it, but yes, the church.

Layman's terms.

In layman's terms, yes, the church is a community baptized with the spirit of truth so that it may bear witness to the truth. Church is the pillar and foundation of the truth.

If the church gives up bearing witness to the truth, then this Satan is out there to deceive the nations. And Canada is being deceived by Satan. That is Satan's mission to deceive the nation.

And that mission is being fulfilled by Canadian through Canadian universities. The church is to rise up to reform.

This is what Luther said that the second most important need after reforming the church is to reform the university. And this part of the Reformation has been completely forgotten because the church abandoned.

I am curious on this though, because I know that my audience is really going to.

I know that they sat up in their chair when you said we shouldn't be as concerned about unreached people groups as much as we are as discipling nations. That is going to shock people. Because many of the people in my tribe are saying, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

What?

Like I was tracking with you, you were talking about school. They might have even thought you were advocating some type of homeschool.

And I think some people just knowing my audience the way that I do, but you're saying, no, no, no, no. This is a total different thing than I'm talking about right now.

I am talking about at a meta or at a macro level, reaching, I mean, going back to the Word of God because that has actually shaped our entire Western civilization and you don't even realize it. And if we don't, we are giving it over to a demonic idea.

Because if we remove the Bible of God at the center, nature abhors a vacuum and the devil's going to come in and he's going to take that a myriad of different ways and we'll have continued division than we've had before. Am I right in that?

You're very right. And I wish we had another one or two hours to the details of the discussion. But in February I gave three lectures at Libri Conference in Rochester.

My first lecture was can the USA be reformed when the university has become the source of its corruption? University has become the source of its darkness. Can USA be reformed? Can these bones live?

My second lecture was in a workshop called Liberating Evangelicalism from Anti Intellectualism. So your pastors, the leaders who may have theological degrees.

What happened that the evangelical movement gave up universities and colleges and retreated into the seminary movement. This is a serious discussion which I have an hour of lecture on it. The third lecture in debris was on this third education revolution.

But I am saying things which are much worse than I have said so far.

So let me also put that on the table that movements that reached out to the university students in the USA and Canada, movements such as InterVarsity, Campus Crusade Navigators and all the other university movements, these were defeated movements.

Intervasti begins with accepting defeat that we have lost Harvard University, we have lost Princeton, we have lost Yale, we cannot possibly win these universities back. Christianity is not strong enough. The Word of God is not strong enough. The Bible is not strong enough to bring these universities back.

Let's just save souls and prepare them for the Rapture. Prepare the remnant of the Second Coming. So the Best university movements in USA and Canada are intellectually defeated movements.

They accept the defeat first and therefore nobody's trying to save the university, they are trying to save individual souls.

So I'm saying some things actually, which is much worse than what I've said so far on your show, that a new Reformation is necessary because the Christian leadership is product of an anti intellectualism where sola scriptura began to mean study only the Scriptures. So you go to Moody Bible Institute or Biola. Biola used to be Bible Institute of Los Angeles. Thankfully it became a university.

But Wheaton refused to become a university, or Dallas or Fuller refused to become universities.

But this change that Paola happened was as a result of George Marston's book Fundamentalism and the American Culture and his book on the idea of the Protestant university that the university was a Protestant establishment in North America and and now it has become the established source of unbelief. So from Protestant establishment to established unbelief.

And George Marston and Mark Noll have written on this history of what has really happened to American culture.

So yes, I'm standing against the North American evangelicalism which has produced the leaders who will raise the kind of questions that you have raised. And I'm asking them to Wait a minute, you rethink that.

How your version of Christianity led Canada to a state where the state Canada can say that a law graduate who graduated from a Christian law college cannot be allowed to practice, whereas your law came from the word of God. The whole movement.

1804 is when he appointed this commission to create the Napoleon Code, out of which came the positivist law which now dominates Europe and North America. But before that this was not needed in Germany and not needed.

A reform of the Justinian Court had already happened as a result of the Protestant Reformation in Germany and in England and Canada was blessed, India was blessed through the British common law, etc. Just taking law as one example, but the idea of retreating. Take USA for example. You have nine judges.

Until recently, seven of them were Roman Catholics, six of them are Roman Catholics, three of them were Jews, nine Supreme Court judges, six Roman Catholics. Praise the Lord for Roman Catholics, three Jews, not one Protestant. And all those nine were appointed by Reagan, Senior Bush, Clinton Jr.

Bush, Obama, Trump all of these presidents were Protestants. They couldn't find one Protestant who was fit enough to be nominated to the Supreme Court.

Now the latest lady who cannot define what a woman is, she is a lapsed Protestant nominated by a Roman Catholic president by Joe Biden is a lapsed Roman Catholic who nominates elapsed Protestant to become the judge. So now you have five Roman Catholics, two Jews, three Jews and one Protestant, something like that, who is elapsed. Why did this happen?

This happened because Scofield's generation in the beginning of the 20th century said that the law of God is made redundant by the grace of God. So we should not be studying law, we should not be teaching law, we should be teaching grace and Holy Spirit and salvation and second coming, etc.

So these Bible seminaries during the 20th century, none of the evangelical institution of higher education had a law faculty. That is Moody Bible Institute, Beaton, Biola, Dallas, Fuller. None of them had law faculty. None of them have a law faculty today.

Is law part of Word of God? If law is an integral part of the Word of God, why aren't these Bible seminaries teaching law?

You had one law college in Western Canada which got into a lot of trouble. Thankfully that verdict was changed. But America USA evangelical movement began to change only with Jerry Falwell.

It doesn't matter how much you hate him, but he established or Pat Robertson. Two of them established the law colleges. First in Liberty University and Regent University.

Then Trinity followed and a few other colleges have come up.

But the evangelical movement in hundred years has not yet produced one Bible believing thinker, legal professional who is qualified to be nominated to Supreme Court bench. This is the damage that the evangelical movement has done to North America.

And therefore your listeners who will be upset at what I'm saying, they need to begin to reflect the damage that Post Moody evangelicalism has done to North America. Wow.

So you're basically saying that with schools like Moody, they withdrew to focus exclusively on the Great Commission and the idea of soul winning. But not understanding the idea of making disciples means the holistic nature of who they are. Even at their core, they did not.

Focus on Great Commission. They did not understand the Great Commission because the North American church could not even define the word nation.

The Great Commission is to go and disciple all nations. Is Canada a nation? Is USA a nation?

Out of Fuller School of World Missions, out of which came the US center for World Mission and impacted the Lausanne Movement, the word nation began to be defined as people group. Why? Because Dr. Donald McGovern, Dr. Ralph Winter and these champions of who defined nation as people group.

Nation was a Jewish idea where 13 people groups, 13 tribes. Because Joseph had become two tribes, 13 people groups living together under one law that made a nation.

When those 13 people group succumbed to people groupism, tribalism, that one nation split into two nations. Judah, which was Judah and Benjamin, and 10 northern tribes. Joseph being treated as one tribe, 10 northern tribes becoming Israel.

So when Israel splits into Israel and Judah, how many nations are there? Two nations, because there are two laws, two political structures, two centers of authority.

So the North American missionary movement, particularly during the last 50 years, could not define the word nation, and they could not define the word nation. The fuller school of world missions and every missiology department in these seminaries was a product of the fuller influence.

They could not define the word nation in the Protestant and Jewish sense. USA was conceived as a nation. USA could have become 13 colonies because there were 13. 13 colonies. They could have become 13 kingdoms.

It could have become one empire. If USA had become an empire, it would have colonized Canada and it would have colonized Mexico.

But USA Although few times in its history it has acted imperialistically, such as in Philippines. USA was the third western nation that became a nation rather than a people group.

Because Genesis 10, just before Genesis 11, Tower of Babel, had already defined nation as a group of people speaking a language. They were all descendants of Noah. They became different nations not because of ethnicity.

They became different nations because of different languages. Languages is at the root of the nation, but it's not exclusive definition of a nation, because territory matters.

These people began to live in a particular territory, speaking the same language, governing themselves. Governance is part of what it means to be a nation. And governance implies laws.

So a people living in a geography, speaking one nation, governing in one territory, governing themselves, that's a nation. Governance has to be under God's word. If God's will is to be done on earth, the governance must be according to God's law.

So all of this was forgotten during the last 50 years of the evangelical movement particularly.

And the reason it was forgotten 70 years was because after World War II, Roman Catholic and secular intelligentsia in Europe began attacking German nationalism as the root of the two world wars. But the evangelical mind had already been killed by Moody Bible Institute and the evangelical movement.

So instead of defending the German European concept of nation, the American evangelical leadership surrendered to secular and Roman Catholic attack on the concept of nation. To say the case of Rome, when Bible says go and disciple all nations.

Bible doesn't mean nation in the modern sense of the world because the modern sense is secular sense, which is a nonsense because modern concept of nation is a Protestant concept based upon Jewish concept.

So for Fuller to say that the modern concept of nation is a secular concept just shows the ignorance of the history of how nations were formed, why the US and Canada became nations.

The evangelical movement, as Mark Noel says in the scandal of the evangelical mind, or Harry Bremeyer says, in the Christian mind, there is no Christian mind.

So the seminary movement, as it reacted against the university and began to study church history rather than world history, it didn't understand words such as nations. Therefore it could not understand the great commission that go and disciple all nations.

Father did not say to the son in Psalm 2, Ask of me and I will give you tons of souls. Father said, ask of me and I will make nations your inheritance, ends of the earth as your possession.

And nations means not just geography, but also governance and long. And language. The language has been given up. The American evangelical scene today cannot use the word truth. It can only use the word story.

The Bible is collection of stories. There are hardly any evangelical preacher who can say that the Bible is truth. Thy word is truth that we are called to. 1 Timothy 2, 4.

God desires all men to be saved and go to heaven. This is evangelicalism, where Paul says God desires all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.

And he goes on to say in verse seven, because God desires all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of truth. He says, I was appointed an apostle, which means that I'm a preacher and a teacher of truth to the Gentiles. I'm an academic pastor.

I'm a teacher of truth to the Gentiles. Because God wants everyone to know the truth. It is the truth that sets you free faith and slaves by itself.

If faith is not grounded in truth, then faith enslaves every idol worshiper, myth maker, myth believer, his slaves to his myth. Because myths have to be enforced. Truth can be debated in question. Truth liberates.

So Paul goes on to say in 1 Timothy 3:15 that the church is the pillar and foundation of the truth.

But truth is something that has been abandoned by Western evangelical movement which is interested now in telling stories that to witness is to be a storyteller. That Jesus says that you will be baptized with the empowered by the Spirit and you will become storytellers.

This is the whole mindset with which we are trying, from which we are trying to liberate the damage that the giving up of the universities, giving up of college education, retreating into the seminaries has done to average Christian pastor that he is no longer championing truth. And because the church is no longer bearing witness to the truth.

You have universities such as Harvard, whose motto is still Veritas that we exist for truth.

But the president of Harvard goes to Beijing University in China and boasts that every professor who is appointed to Harvard, he has to begin by admitting that he does not know. We are not a university that claims that we know the truth or we seek the truth.

We are a university, we are still number one because we pursue excellence. University is now pursuing excellence, not truth, not the fear of God, not character, not virtue. And veritas.

This is the source of the darkness of the West. The university has become the source of the darkness of the west because university is no longer under the authority of truth.

That is so different. What is the most recent nation that you know that it's done with what you're advocating right now? Or is there a nation that's doing it?

Well, Indonesians were the first who began.

So curriculum comes from the university, but students are in their local church, they're an academic pastor. 100,000 churches in America taking 15 students each is 1.5 million students. In second year you have 3 million students in the church every day.

In a four year program, USA can have 3 to 6 million students studying every day in the church. Church becomes the greatest political force, greatest philosophical and intellectual force you begin to shape.

By the time they landed in Jakarta, they decided this book should be translated into Indonesians and let's begin to reform. So the Canadian group is called Truth and Transformation Canada because that was a book which began the Indonesian movement.

So they now, the Indonesians didn't ask me if they can translate the book and publish it. They just went ahead and translated. And when they were ready to print, they asked me if I would come to release a book.

What you need to do is turn 10,000 churches into university classrooms. So a Muslim girl will walk to her own local church to attend a university class because she cannot go to the city.

And the curriculum will come into the university, into the local church under an academic pastor.

So if you can turn so Suddenly, you have 10,000 university classrooms in Indonesia being attended by the Indonesian Christians and non Christians, including Muslims, and you are now teaching the truth that transforms all those university subjects. So they said, yes, let's do it. So I went back to launch the First Presbyterian Church, which had a high school in its own campus.

One a Christian businessman who understood the potential, economic potential of the business model that I was proposing. He financed in Christian Presbyterian High School building a computer lab.

But Internet signal was so poor that they had to put a 50 meter high antenna to catch the signal coming from cities to download the curriculum. Now students will pay 2, $3 a month to spend 1 hour a week, 1 hour a day learning computers when the computers are free.

Teachers who do not have a bachelor's degree, most of the poor, most of the schools, Christian schools, teaching the poor. They don't get qualified teachers because they can't pay.

But teachers will teach in their own villages, then cycle to the city to use these computers to get a bachelor's degree in education. So normally they would have 10 plus 2. They have to get two more years to get a bachelor's degree.

So we were giving them last two years, I think 15th and 16th year of education. What the teachers will do is prepare the lesson that they are going to teach next week.

They'll prepare the lesson, they will send it to the teacher in the university.

The teaching assistant will review their lesson plan, tell them that your introduction is very weak, your application is very poor, et cetera, et cetera. Send the feedback back. Teacher will revise his lesson, Teach the lesson.

So now students are getting a lesson which the teacher has really prepared with supervision and guidance. And the teacher is learning teaching method. So we're giving them two years of how to become a teacher.

So the teacher is continuing to live in his own village.

He's married, he's looking after his wife and children and a little farm and the church Is offering, first of all, training teachers for poor Christian schools where they do not have good teachers. In those poor schools now, students are getting much better education. But you can also teach practical subjects in the church, such as agriculture.

Students study BSc Agriculture theory on computer, because now you can, with 3D particularly, you can do all sorts of virtual experiments in agriculture.

But you have an agriculture extension worker who is Monday morning in one village, Monday afternoon in second village, Tuesday morning in third village. So he's covering five to 10 villages where every village has a model farm where students are experimenting.

And under a village agriculture extension worker, if they run into a problem that a particular plant has some disease which the extension worker does not understand, all he needs to do is bring out his smartphone, Skype in those days, 10 years ago. Now, zoom, have the professor in the university, agricultural university, look at the plant.

And if the teacher cannot understand and solve the problem, he says, well, dig up that plant, send it to the university lab, we will study the plant and try and understand what the problem is, what the solution is. So practical BSc agriculture is being taught in the church.

Students will still need to go to the university for two weeks to do experiments in chemistry or in botany or biology, etc. Which you cannot do in the church.

So you still have to go to the university, but you don't have to live in the university for four years to get a bachelor's degree in agricultural science. But this is just one aspect of the agriculture revolution. How do we finance this? How do we build?

A single mother whose husband has died or left her is bringing up a child. She is working as a daily wage laborer. How does she get a laptop for her child? Well, she's illiterate.

If there is an agri cooperative led by the church elders, which she applies, she's part of the cooperative. Can she come in to a kitchen three times a week, learn how to roast peanuts or ground nuts or other things which is sold to the cooperative.

Cooperative packages it, markets it. So you have this decentralized cooperative movement which is also taking care of the health.

And we'll talk about how the church can take health back from the state. But at the moment, let's stick to agriculture.

So this illiterate woman who can do nothing but learn how to roast peanuts, spicy, salty, unsalted, etc. Professionally packaged. And now from a village in Uganda, you have peanuts being sold in Canada as King's peanuts, other things like that.

So the church becomes a cooperative educational agricultural medical program where the pastor is no longer a priest, but A shepherd who's taking care of his son, who does not have a father, has an illiterate mother helping that son with the help of his mother to get a computer where he can come to church.

While the mother is collecting garbage the whole day, he can come to the church and study math and science so that tomorrow he can actually go and study rocket science in NASA. Because the church as led by shepherd has been taking care of this widow, enabling her to take care of her son.

So this is part of the third education revolution which is making it possible for the poorest family that has turned to Christ to lift up their children. Because the real wealth of a nation is in the mind of the children. Wisdom is more precious than diamond and gold and silver and rubies. It's hidden.

The job of education is to bring the hidden wealth, the wisdom which will then create material wealth. This is what Protestant movement did and brought Canada and USA to, to the level where these nations are.

Because the church was, as part of the second education revolution was bringing the wealth hidden in the hardened mind of young people to the surface.

Let the devil do the educating of these people.

So you know, a country such as Argentina, which was blessed by the charismatic movement Baptist movement, has 500 organizations devoted to world missions. But there's not one Protestant university in all of Argentina.

This is because the North American missionary movement misunderstood the Great Commission. Now there is a Presbyterian missionary, a university in Argentina outside of Buono. I've stayed in the home of the founder.

I've spoken in that university. Only the money was Presbyterian. Every single staff was a Roman Catholic.

Because there wasn't just the Protestant intellectual capital to run a university in, in Argentina. So the growth of the Protestant movement in South America has stopped.

And South America, every single country in South America has now become socialist. The consequences have been worse in Honduras and Venezuela, where millions of refugees have been driven out of their own countries.

But what damaged South America is actually Theological developments of North America. And if we had another half an hour, I'd be glad to discuss that. But we don't have that.

But the damage that the North American theological movement has done to the world is enormous.

There's so much what we have just talked about that we can't even begin to unplug or pull out today. How can people follow you and learn more about what you're doing?

There is a website called the third educationrevolution.com which introduces the book at the moment. But from this week, hopefully we will begin to update it.

Post a lot of videos that links there that my own website is called revelationmovement.com but it's really my Facebook that I use a lot. There is a Facebook page called vishalmangalwadi which I don't use, but there is just Vishal Mangalwadi post that I use a lot.

Many of these radical statements and ideas are unpacked on those Facebook page. So I have now about 25 books. But the next few months I'm devoting to getting a lot of these books and published.

These very serious statements and harsh statements that I'm making. They obviously need explanation and defense, but lectures are there.

The Labrie lectures on can America be reformed when the university has become its source of darkness. It's now uploaded yesterday a discussion of third education revolution, which is what? Our 27 minutes in South Africa that was uploaded.

George Peterson's interview is a good place for people to begin. That's 1 hour 47 minutes on the Bible's impact on history.

So actually that would be the best thing for Canada to watch John Peterson's podcast with me. He's also broken it up into 10 or so chapters so you can watch five minutes or 10 minutes, but the full thing is one hour.

Then I did a second documentary with him on logos and literacy, which right now is for free. It's on daily wire.com daily wireless. So those would be good introductions.

Peterson's interview is actually very good because he is very learned and you would see that in many of the interviews of many of his podcasts that have followed the impact of this book that you have studied, the book that made your world that is visible now on his thinking. He is still a Jungian psychologist, but he is definitely going beyond Carl Jung.

Well, I look forward to checking that out. Maybe our listeners will too. But Vishal, we need to continue this discussion. We only scratched the surface. There are so many other questions I have.

After you made those statements, I went okay, wait. What I really wanted to know more because there's just so many different implications. There are so many different statements that you made.

I went, okay, I really need to think, I need to go back and I need to see. Is that what is has been said? Is that what's been taught? Is that what's gone on?

Because it seemed like almost like you were advocating what many of the Dutch like in Abraham Kuyper had done. And now you're getting into conversation of nationalism. And I was thinking of Heinrich Bovink or J.R. bovink. I mean, that's.

That seems to me what you were a lot of that what's. What you're advocating. Am I right in that?

Yes, you're absolutely right. In a sequel, the book that you have has a sequel called this book changed everything. This is a sequel to the book that made your world.

This has a chapter on nation beginning with Alexander the Great. Europe had accepted the Middle Eastern concept of imperialism. Only political idea that Greece exported was imperialism, not democracy.

The American universities have been lying that the modern idea of democracy comes from Athens. I have a good debate on it with Tom Holland. Imperialism is what Alexander the Great exported.

They inspired the USA to become a nation. The concept of nation is a biblical idea which Hitler corrupted. The German nationalism of Hitler was not nationalism. It was imperialism.

He called it nationalism.

But the theologians at Fuller Seminary couldn't see that when the Roman Catholics and secularists are condemning German nationalism, they're actually condemning German imperialism. But they don't understand nation. So instead of correcting them, the evangelical movement accepted the idea that, yes, nationalism is evil.

Nationalism is what has created the. Led to the two world wars. And then this reductionist idea of a nation means a people group began to misinterpret the Great Commission.

And this was fused with dispensational pre millennialism that Jesus will come back as soon as the last unreached people group has heard the gospel story.

And for the last 50 years, this is what has driven much of the global missionary movement, which has been an entire misunderstanding of what the Great Commission is all about. And so, yes. So my point of saying is, yes, this has a chapter on nation. It has a chapter on the history of tolerance.

Why did Canada become a tolerant, civilized society? And why is Canada now losing tolerance?

It has a chapter on law that where did, did Rome make Europe where rulers were under the law, not above the law. So in Canada also now you have a problem of the rulers putting themselves above the law. What is the university?

Where does this concept of university come from? So these issues have been studied in other books and we have many more volumes coming on those books.

But my own, a lot of my focus has been on India, on how the Bible created modern India and why the.

Why India needs to return to the Bible if they are not destroy everything that the missionary movement and much of it, including Canadian missionary movement, gave to us. We have to return our nation to the word of God. And so. So this is talking about a whole new Reformation.

It is challenging evangelical theology and tradition of the last hundred years to sow the seeds of a new Reformation, a new understanding of what church is, what Great Commission is, what nations are, and how to bless all the nations and bring healing to all nations.

That's so much that we've talked about today. Vishal, you've just whet the appetites. I know some people are infuriated. They're frustrated. They want to know more.

But I do want to thank you for coming on the show. I want to thank you. We hardly got to talk about the book itself. We were busy talking about so many other things.

But recommend the book to so many different people. And again, thank you for coming on Apollo's Water. Vishal is a very smart man. I thoroughly enjoyed his book, the book the Major World.

It was insightful, it was groundbreaking, and it was really encouraging to me because it helped me to see how the Bible really was at the foundation of Western civilization. I like learning from people with different backgrounds and different perspectives that help challenge my thinking.

I don't know if you could hear this in the conversation, but I was doing a lot, and I mean a lot of processing. Honestly, I still haven't come to full terms with everything that he talked about. I'm not sure if I'm grasping every nuance.

And really my first reaction is that I don't agree. But I want to go down deeper. I want to be able to seek some counsel. I want to look at the scripture to see what it says.

And as I said at the introduction, this wasn't the conversation that I was planning on having, but I'm thankful for it nonetheless. And I'm thankful for Vishal. I'm thankful for his courage. I'm thankful for his activism. I'm thankful for his love for God.

As we thought about this conversation as a team at Apollo's watered.

We were trying to discern and decide what to do and in the end we basically decided to give you this conversation as it was instead of offering any full critiques. We want to do that in the future, but right now I'd like to leave you with a few comments.

That's mostly because we're going to do a follow up episode where our team will discuss this at length. And that's only fair because this was a long conversation and I don't want to make it any longer. So here's just a few words.

First, it is important to listen carefully and in good faith to people we disagree with. There may be important critiques that we need to take seriously. We may have some things wrong.

It's even more important when it is a Christian brother whom we know by reputation and word to be faithful in Christ honoring. So that's our starting point.

The fact that Vishal comes from a different culture than ours is actually more of a reason to listen to him in our opinion.

Everyone has blind spots and we need to interact with people from different cultures to see what those blind spots are so that we can hopefully remove them.

And as far as Vishal's major contention that churches should be and can be more active in the education of its members here and around the world, we wholeheartedly agree. The idea of online universities and connecting people who otherwise would not have access is both genius and frankly, only right now.

We do have questions about how it would work in a western setting, but those are more logistical in nature and even maybe just feasibility, not necessarily questions of whether or not it's a good idea. Secondly, his historical knowledge about how education in the west was born out of the church is accurate as far as we know.

Thirdly, I think he has some serious legitimate critiques about anti intellectualism and at least some strains of evangelicalism. Since the late and early early 20th century, to a degree there has been an over spiritualization of things to the detriment of life in here and now.

There were reasons for this and we are going to talk about it. But the critique, while it stings, is not entirely untrue. That's where we agree.

However, we do have some serious questions and I would even say probably vehement disagreements that we're going to address in the very near future. But we want to make sure that we get all of our ducks in a row.

We have questions about how he separates truth and story, his conceptualization of the nation state, and his assessment of some of the Christian institutions, namely Moody Bible Institute, Biola and Wheaton and how they crafted themselves as opposed to the university model in the seminary movement. I want to thank our. Our Apollos Watered team for helping water the world. This is Travis Michael Fleming signing off from Apollos Watered.

Stay watered, everybody.

Sam.