#190 | Listening, Loving, and Learning Their Names | Sabrina Chan & Linson Daniel

I think one of the things that is unique to an Asian American and their discipleship with Jesus is this idea of biculturalism or even triculture. Like, you can be a tricultural kid or you can be an adoptee.

So there's, like, various ways that we enter into the culture, and oftentimes you're kind of like. You're kind of in between various cultures. And early on, I'm going to say this. Early on, I was taught that that was a really good thing.

And, like, you know, like, you know how to be in this setting, and then you can switch and you can be over here, and, you know, you can do that. And, you know, I realized that is a gift to be bicultural.

Like, I can bring the gifts of different cultures into one another and help and, you know, and, you know. But then I think as I got into my, like, mid-30s and late-30s, it started to feel less like a gift. I started getting super tired.

It's watering time, everybody.

It's time for Apollo's Watered, a podcast to saturate your faith with the things of God so that you might saturate your world with the good news of Jesus Christ. My name is Travis Michael Fleming, and.

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And today on our show, we're having another one of our deep conversations. Culture is simply our way of doing things. That's it. We talk about culture all of the time on this show.

In fact, I like to call it the third lens, because culture influences a lot of what we do, what we see, what we value, what we pursue.

And oftentimes, we have a tendency to project our culture onto other cultures, not realizing that they may have an entirely different set of cultural values. And oftentimes what we try to do is make our values transcultural.

We think that everyone should have our values and should look at the world the way that we do. And unfortunately, that would be a mistake because some of our cultural values aren't the best values at all. Here's what I mean.

We are, in the west, hyper individualistic, and we don't think about those around us very often when we make our decisions. But biblically, when you look at the scripture, they. I mean, it meant a lot to them to make a decision.

They wouldn't think of not including their parents in a decision or their greater community. And we would just kind of tilt our heads and go, huh, I wonder why we do things the way that we do.

You know, we often don't realize we have a culture until we encounter someone from a different cultural background. I For example, didn't know about how to view my parents.

I mean, in my culture that I grew up in, and I grew up in a small town in the Midwest that was majority white people, was a small farm town. And in my cultural background, when you hit 18, you were an adult.

Your parents didn't really speak into your future, your career or anything like that.

But when I encountered some brothers and sisters in the inner city of Chicago who came from Filipino backgrounds, I found something totally different in their mind. It was very unusual not to have their parents speak into their education, even well into adulthood.

And at first I thought that was wrong, but then I started to realize, wait a minute, that's probably a lot closer to the world of the Bible than my viewpoint. You know, whenever we interact with cultures, it's good to stop, listen so that we can learn and love.

Today's episode is really an exercise in listening to our brothers and sisters from a different background than our own. I'm talking to Lenson, Daniel and Sabrina Chan about their book Learning Our Names.

Now, it's an important book and I know that some of you are wondering, why are you talking about this on Apollo's water? Travis, I mean, what's the point of bringing this book to our attention? And I have a few different reasons.

I want to talk about this book, which is primarily aimed at second gen Asian Americans about their vocation and their identity, because they are our brothers and sisters, they are among us. And I've been interacting with brothers and sisters from Asian backgrounds over the years and I've learned so much from them about who God is.

My vision of God has grown as a result of it. And I want your vision of God to grow as well.

And I've also been pained when I hear of their experiences when they interact with people that have skin tones like my own, whether that's in society or especially in the church. As a matter of fact, I was chatting with a friend of mine. This is just right after Covid came out and it was nicknamed by some as the China Virus.

Now, my friend is from an Asian background, he is from the Hmong people. But people automatically, by looking at some of his facial features, assumed that he was Chinese.

And he was denied service at a Lowe's because of that. And I know others have been fetishized, they've been treated or thought upon in certain ways according to various stereotypes.

And I have listened to my friends share, sometimes in tears, the pain of their experiences and coming into my, my church and my world. And I wanted to kind of Blow away the fog of confusion so that we might be able to have our vision of God grow.

And in order to do that, we need to stop and listen to those that are around us. Now, I know that there are some out there who say, hey, culture has no role whatsoever within society.

And that is a person that is coming from a majority culture. If you don't have to think about your culture at all whatsoever, it's because you are in the majority. Now, I'm not trying to villainize you.

I'm not saying that you're a bad person or an evil person at all. Please don't misunderstand.

And I also know that there are some who say, okay, culture is important, but we're all Americans and not everyone who listens to this show is an American. But we should have an American culture.

Well, what does that look like?

What is an American culture? What does it mean to be from an Asian background in America? When people treat them as if they're Asian and not American?

Those who are more second generation or those who come from African American backgrounds or who are Latino or Latina, I mean, what do we do then? What does an American look like? And granted, we are or should be united by the ideals that we hold to in our culture.

But unfortunately, many of us don't look at the world in that way. We assume that everyone's culture, even their American culture, is our American culture.

And we know that there are differences in how Americans, white Americans, go about things. If you live in the south, where I'm living right now, it's very different than how you would live in the north, in the Northeast, or in the West.

And we know this intuitively. There's this certain way that we go about these things. Now, I'm not trying to say that one is better than the other. That's not my goal.

My goal is about the church. Because in the church, Jesus said very clearly in John chapter 17, which is one of my absolute favorite passages in all of Scripture.

I pray that they will all be one, just as you and I are one. As you are in me, Father, and I am in you, and may they be in us so that the world will believe you sent me. There it is.

It's so that the world would believe. I believe that there should be ethnic churches where people can let their hair down and speak their language.

I think that as people assimilate within society, that if we can come together from all of our different ethnic backgrounds worshiping God, it shows the world how great God is and it becomes one aspect of evangelization. And it's an apologetic. It shows the world the reality of the hope that we have as it's being tangibly lived out in our culture.

Now, if you are listening to this show, then you know that that's not often the reality, that whenever we try to do multi ethnic church, there's a variety and host of factors that come up, and today we're not going to address all of those.

But I wanted to actually focus on one specific people group, and that's my Asian brothers and sisters who come from so many different Asian countries, and that they are wrongly kind of lumped all together as one group of people, even though they might be from Vietnam or the Hmong or China or Japan or India. And each one of those cultures has a totally different way of looking at the world with there's so many different subcultures in that as well.

So I wanted to bring this conversation to your attention to hear from a dear brother and dear sister who have a certain experience as they're interacting with majority white Christian spaces in their world. And I want to be able to hear from them. I want them to teach me to show me who God is in a greater way.

I want to hear about their pain, but I also want to hear about their hopes, their joys. Why? Because I want to be together as a body of believers so that the world can see who Jesus is. That's why.

And I don't want to assume that their culture is my own, but I want to see how God has worked in their culture so that I might marvel anew about God all over again. So it's a conversation that is meant to challenge, it's meant to inspire, and it's meant to help you grow in your walk with Jesus.

So without further ado, let's dive into today's deep conversation with Sabrina Chen and Lynson Daniel as we talk about their book, Learning Our Names. Happy listening.

Sabrina Chan and Linson Daniel. Welcome to Apollo's Watered.

Thanks.

Good to be here. Hey, yeah, Great to be here.

You say that on all podcasts.

I know it.

Yeah.

Mostly nerd.

Yeah.

Not doing anything for my self esteem. Not doing anything. Okay, here we go. Are you ready for the fast buy?

As ready as I'll ever be.

Okay, here we go. Let's start off with you, Sabrina. I'm going to ask you Both. You're going to just flick back and forth, back and forth.

That's right.

I do. I speak English. That is my language. I think.

I think it is.

I think it is. Okay, here we go. So here's your first question. Your preferred work music. Not workout work music.

Like, while I'm working.

Yes.

Oh, fast five. I actually have started listening to this 8D music. I don't know if you've heard about this 8D. It, like. It, like, pans across.

If you have, like, stereo speakers, it pans across and has, like, funky stuff. It just keeps me interested. It's usually songs, I don't know, but it's, like.

So curious.

Spotify playlist, 8D. It's like something about, like, the way it goes around it, like. Yeah, it's cool.

Does it do that if you have headphones on? It just goes back and forth.

Yeah, it shifts back. It pans back and forth and stuff.

Interesting.

I love listening to someone playing the acoustic guitar.

Is it any type of. Just like, any type of song in acoustic guitar?

I mean. Yeah. I mean, I. I like. I don't want words. I. I do like when they sometimes are playing pop or rock, but I can listen to anything. Acoustic guitar.

Okay. Okay. All right, number two here. Here we go. Preferred coffee or tea. And why. It's an easy one.

You want to go first? Listen.

Oh, coffee.

It's Linson's turn.

Oh, yeah, coffee. Yeah, Just.

You can't just say coffee in this.

Oh, yeah, I like. I like Pete's black.

Okay. Beats coffee black.

I am a tea person. I don't drink coffee. Yeah. My favorite is Hong Kong milk tea, which is a really strong black tea with, like, legit style.

It's like, with condensed milk. I don't drink it that much because it's not that good for you. Also, I can't find it around here.

Kind of have to go to, like, a Hong Kong cafe, which is in sort of larger cities.

All right, here we go. How about this? And let's talk. Let's talk about this one. Number three. Those closest to me say my most annoying habit is.

Yeah, I get impatient. So we're playing. We're playing this video game with my kids. Overcooked. I don't know if you've seen it. It's like a team.

It's like you're working in a restaurant kitchen kind of thing. And so they were like, mom is yelling too much. You know, there's these efficiencies. Like, hey, somebody go get the tomatoes.

You know, I'm like, oh, I get kind of impatient stuff.

Like, I mean, I get it.

My kids get impatient with me on video games. But you're your kids on video games.

See, that's what I'm saying. It's not a good look.

So last.

So I'm working on it. It's for my sanctification. Last time I was like, okay, I'm just going to bite my tongue. I'm not going to say anything.

And we did better when I wasn't, you know, I wasn't yelling a lot. It was just a little bit. But I think they were sensitive to that. I can appreciate. I appreciated the feedback. I tried to adapt.

How about you?

My family doesn't like the fact that, like, I like to. I'm always tapping stuff. Like I'm drumming constantly air drumming or I'm typing on stuff.

You know, I remember one time we were driving my car and I'm like tapping on the, you know, my steering wheel and like, I've got a turn signal signal on. So I hear that and I'm tapping to that. I'm doing all sorts. And my son in the back was like, dad, I was. And I was like, yeah.

He goes, do you, like, hear a song right now? Hello? I was like, I do, actually. Nobody else can hear it. They find it so annoying.

I can't stop tapping or drumming or even my leg, like when I'm tapping my foot always, there's always a beat going on and they find that really annoying.

My kids do that. Actually.

The other day my wife was making a comment because I think it was three of my kids and myself were all tapping and singing a different song at the table. And my wife was like, somebody pick a song. Not everybody.

Somebody pick a song.

Just pick one song. She can't stand it because she's a musician. So she's like, not just one. All right, here we go. Number four. All right.

Because we're talking about cultures. We always like to talk about cultures on the show. Where your ethnic group comes. I mean, your ethnic background, your heritage.

What's the one thing, the one thing from your ethnic heritage that you love the most? Your culture of ethnic origin you love the most? For me, I'm Irish, so I just like the Irish kind of. I love the Green river in Chicago.

That's about it, though.

I don't have anything else.

We've been in forever, man.

Wow. Okay. I mean, I want to say food, which I feel like that, that's a given lately. I've been really getting into, like, lots of Different Indian movies.

So, like, like, my. We watched one or two, and now all my Netflix recommendations are movies all over India, and now we're really getting into it.

I'm like, so are we talking about, like, Indian dramas? We talk Bollywood. Like, action films.

Yeah.

It's all in comedies.

Oh, man. I love romantic. Romantic comedies. I love, actually Bollywood of all cultures, but. I know.

But there's something about the Indian Bollywood that I started watching, and then my Netflix queue came up the same way. But I've learned there's, like, dance and then there's water, and then there's the, you know, the singing kind of stereotypical ones.

I mean, there's so many really good dramas out there now, too, but some of those, I'm just like, woman going on.

Yeah. Yeah. I really enjoyed that.

So how about you, Sabrina?

Yes. Hard. So many things I love. I think I am going to have to go food, though.

Like, the food specifically, like, around, like, communal meals, you know, like, ordering together all the time. And like, like dim sum. You really can't do dim sum with just one or two people.

Like, it's really best if you go with, like, four or eight or 12 or like, some multiple.

Four.

Because a lot of this is coming, but, like, a good amount of people and. Or like, hot pot. Like, different things. Like, you just. There's, like. It's not just a meal, it's an experience.

Yeah.

Like, with the. With the. With the conversation, the, like, sharing and stuff. I don't know. Yeah, I love that.

All right, here we go. Number five. If your life or a film, what would the title be and why?

Maybe I'll just do this. I think it would be called Sabrina, but not the movie Sabrina with Audrey Hepburn. And, you know, all that, though.

I think my parents named me after that movie a little bit. Or like that. They were. They're Audrey Hepburn fans.

Oh, really?

Yeah.

Oh, I love how people come up with names. I just do. Sometimes the stories behind them are so unique. I had a girl that one time at camp, I was directing a camp, and her name was Gretchen.

This is very. This is like 20 years ago, which is a very unique name, especially in the cultural context we were at. And I said, where did you get the name?

Is it a family name? And she's like, no. And she put her head down. She goes, I'm named after my grandfather's goat. I was like, seriously serious? She's like, yes.

And so I say this to my shame. I called her Goat girl all week.

Oh, my God.

But she laughed. She Laughed. The last day of camp, she walked in, and there she had a goat on a leash.

I look up, I'm speaking in the platform right here, you know, and I look up and there's a goat with my underwear on it.

Oh, wow.

She got me good. I mean, she got me good. She got me totally good. Totally good. I'd say it's my shame. I'd say it to my shame. But how about you, Linton?

You know, I didn't watch this show growing up, but I've heard funny stories about it. But I probably named my movie Dallas, and then it'd be a huge twist on it.

But, yeah, that would be so good.

That's awesome.

Just picturing you in the opening montage with that music, by the way. I could see the music. It's Dallas. That's the office. That's right. I read that you're a fan on there. So that's Dallas.

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Okay, let's get in. Let's talk a bit about. Let's start off with the book, but actually, I want to hear your bios.

I mean, obviously we have two of the four authors that could be here today, but I want to hear a little bit about your backgrounds. I mean, you talk about it in the book, but since there's only two of you here, we have a little bit more time to kind of delve into it.

But let's hear your stories of how just A really kind of quick 30,000 foot view of your background. Sabrina, how about you go first?

Yeah, sure. I grew up mostly in white environments, so we went to an all white church.

There was one Nigerian family that came for one or two years at one point, for a long time. And I went to a mostly almost completely white Christian school for a lot of my early years.

And then later we started participating in a Chinese church, Chinese immigrant church here in town. My dad was helping out there.

And I think for me though, I had a lot of church growing up and walked away from the faith, you know, kind of sometime in high school probably. And in the first part of college, came back to the faith.

In college I was at Rice in Houston and got involved with campus ministry with InterVarsity Christian Fellowship. And that was really significant for me. I think there's just a lot of learning for real, what faith means.

I think I had absorbed a set of rules is basically what had happened. After college, I was an engineer, so I worked as an engineer for a couple years. I came on full time ministry with InterVarsity after that.

And yeah, student ministry in Texas, nine years there, then to the Bay Area. That's where I met Linson, actually, when he was a student at UT Austin where I was staffing, and then was in the Bay Area for a while.

Finished my seminary degree at Fuller. Met Kevin out there. We got married. Yeah, I continued in leading supervising teams out in the Bay Area for intervarsity.

And then about six years ago, the role of National Director for Asian American Ministries opened up. So I've been doing that for the last six years, which is. That sounds longer than it feels or sometimes the opposite.

But you know, pandemic time makes everything weird.

Yes.

Wow, is that. That's crazy. So we have two kids, we moved back East a few years ago. Wanted to be a little bit closer to family. Yeah, my pet.

My family's from Hong Kong. Most of my extended family still lives in Hong Kong. And we used to go a lot when I was a kid. I got a little bit less frequent.

I loved getting to go there on my sabbatical by myself. That was a really significant point of just like, you know, when you go by yourself, you learn new things and you, you know, have to.

Have to speak the language so much more. Like my Cantonese improve so much and stuff like that. So, yeah, I don't know what else. What else is here necessarily. I'm a bike commuter.

I like to bike around to places and I'm a tea drinker only. No coffee for Me and a video.

Game player that's impatient.

Only, only socially actually that is impatient. It's like I see the efficiencies. Go do this. Yes.

Lenstin, how about you? Let's hear your story.

Yeah, so yeah, my family, so my parents immigrated from India from Kerala, which is a southern state of India which is predominantly has been impacted by the gospel. So a lot of cyber will, kind of a longer Christian heritage in my background. Parents immigrated here like in the, I want to say mid-70s.

And then they eventually moved to Texas. And then I was born here in Dallas, Texas. Most of my upbringing was kind of like compartmentalized. My church and kind of spiritual journey.

We were in a predominantly kind of Indian community and they found other like minded Christians that were Indian and they were together. But my kind of like Monday through Friday was very, very white because we were just kind of in the rural parts of the Dallas Fort Worth Metroplex.

And so I just kind of learned over, over, over time as a young child and as I went into high school how to navigate two worlds, you know, and just kind of, and they, they rarely overlapped, you know. And so they were just kind of these two different worlds that, you know, shaped me in different ways. And I'm very, I'm grateful for both spaces.

Both spaces were good for me and both spaces created hurt and trauma. So I think when I went to college is when I started meeting more and more South Asian or Indian Americans.

Like they are like me, born here, raised here. It was a confluence of both of those cultures. And I really started exploring my cultural background in college and my faith journey.

It first took a nosedive and then it came out of that and really flourished, especially through intervarsity after college. So after a lot of like, wow, I love, I love my Indian background and I didn't know much about it, you know, and wow, I love Jesus.

And, and I was really plumbing the depths of all of that. That started to really ignite a lot of who I was. And maybe God was giving me clues about maybe even my like trajectory in life.

But my parents had all their plans for me. They were like, you're going to be an engineer. And you know, and I was the good son. I wanted to, you know, I was playing the role of the good son.

So I didn't tell him that I felt called into ministry and called to reach other Indians and South Asians because I was seeing like people from different faith backgrounds come to Christ. So while in college. So I thought I was going to get to do that for the rest of my life.

But I stayed on the path, became an engineer, worked for about five, six years. Also got married during that time to my wife and yeah, so navigated all of that.

And then I had a watershed moment and my parents, myself, my kind of community, had a watershed moment, felt called into ministry. So left engineering, started and worked for InterVarsity. Worked for InterVarsity for over a decade.

Shaped me in profound ways about ministry and reaching.

And I really got to try a lot of things because in kind of in the parachurch world or with the university, I could be a little more bold, you know, and like kind of be a mad scientist in ministry to figure out, oh, how do, how do we reach our friends, you know? And now being in the church world, pastoring now here in Dallas, Fort Worth, the church I pastor is predominantly South Asian.

And so we're able to reach pockets of the city that perhaps other churches can't reach. And all that formative time in Interbarsia, I've been able to now apply in a church setting, multi generationally and kind of see God do stuff there.

So I have two awesome kids, a daughter and a son. And yeah, and most of my extended family all lives in Dallas, so I hardly have anyone.

Maybe one uncle, I think, maybe in an aunt, but in India and then maybe London, stuff like that. But pretty much everybody lives here in.

Dallas, so thus the name Dallas.

That's why the movie called Dallas Dallas.

Okay, so let's jump into the book now. I want to hear why was this book written? Why did you feel the need to write this book?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. When I first took this rule a little over five and a half years ago or so, one of the thoughts I had was, oh, I think it's time for another book.

So when I was a college student in the late 90s, this book, following Jesus without dishonoring your parents, was published by ivp, also by a team of authors, staff authors. And it was really helpful for me. I didn't connect with everything in the book, but there were things in the book that, like, name for me.

And so by the time, you know, I I was director. I was like, I think it's probably about time. And I also was feeling like, yeah, we. We wanted it to be a more representative of Asian America. So the.

The older book is. Is East Asian, mostly Chinese, Japanese, Korean background authors.

And so I just was really feeling like, oh, we want to represent more of our community and who we are and really diverse stories.

You know, I think it can be easy for United States society to sort of paint Asian Americans as one thing, and that tends to be East Asian or even Chinese American and a particular, like, socioeconomic bracket or, you know, even jobs.

But actually, Asian America is incredibly diverse and has the widest income inequality and also just wildly different backgrounds depending on, like, you know, which part of Asia, why your family came over, or refugee adoptee. You know, just different things. So we can't represent everyone. Right. Like, there's only so many authors in a book, but.

And Lindsey, I'd love to hear what. What you are thinking and all that too.

Yeah, I was really grateful to get Sabrina's invitation to. To help with the book. And I think for me, I think being South Asian American, there's. There's not like.

It's like we kind of feel like we're at the beginning of a wave, you know, so if.

If, like, my generation, those who are just a little bit older than me, if we don't, like, voice our stories or create our cultural artifacts, like, the wave that comes from behind us won't have anything, you know, and so I was thinking, like, we can't just, like, wishful thinking doesn't create our culture. You know, it doesn't create artifacts. Like, you have to do something.

And one of the things I was really hoping for was a space to actually write a very particular South Asian American story from a Christian perspective and let it be, like, solidified somewhere. And then people can critique it and mess with it and make it better and. But when there's nothing out there, we can't. We can't do anything with it.

And so, you know, Al, our editor, was so generous, but he would always say, like, get as specific as you can with your story. Cause if you can reach, like, he would say things like, if you can reach the heart of Dublin, you can reach any city.

Once you reach the heart of Dublin, then you reach the heart of every city.

So, like, something like, get down to the very, very core of your story, be very, very particular, and then it'll start to resonate with other people. Um, and the feedback I was getting a lot from South Asians And Indian Americans was. It was crazy to read my story in a book.

Like, I'm reading through. Like, you know, and, like, that's crazy. That's our story, you know, and helped them feel valued or validated. Like, oh, I belong here.

And this is in the fabric of our country. Our stories are woven into that. And the reason why people get alarmed when they read it is it's just narrative scarcity.

Like, there's just not a lot of, you know, so, like, you want to. You want to encourage other people. Listen, this is just the beginning.

Like, you know, and then seeing more of it in pop culture, like, more Indian Americans or South Asian Americans in pop culture. And I really want to see it in Christian spaces as well.

So I was really thinking about that South Asian college student who, like, you know, randomly gets his book and then reads in and they're blown away. They're like, that's my story. I can't believe it.

You know, And I was really hoping that would melt their heart towards Christ, you know, and, like, really reverberate and help their discipleship.

So, anyways, I really do like how you structured it from each one's cultural perspective and that you laid it out, because they look at it as a monolith. You know, it's one specific group, and they don't realize the difference between. And even.

Not even just difference between cultures, but even your families. I mean, I think about in a.

Just because someone might have my same skin color and come from my state, even my small town, we are completely different in our. I mean, we have shared experiences, for sure, but there's differences. And that's one of the things that you highlighted.

Even when you talked about the income disparity, talking about Hmong coming as refugees oftentimes and reading that. And I know interacting with my Filipino friends and then hearing from Indian background, it's. It's. It's so different, each one.

But there were unique things that I gathered in your experiences with your families adjusting to this majority white culture, the expectations of education, of professionalization of family, and some of the understandings of singleness. I mean, all these cultural things that just kept popping up, and I was blown away by it.

But I also know that so many of my brothers and sisters that share my skin tone don't really understand. They don't understand because they feel like, hey, this is just how we are. Just jump on in.

And they don't realize that it denies an aspect of your uniqueness and your heritage and your identity and who you are. But I really want to help people to see in our churches that because the church is becoming more diverse across the United States.

Right, we would agree with that.

So seeing though these second generation people that you're writing to, I mean, you're running to all peoples that are coming from those backgrounds, it seems like. But specifically those second generation, third generation people, what are the unique challenges that they have in.

I mean, again, that's the whole book, right? In some respects. So I don't want to, I don't want to have to explain all that so much so.

But some of the things that they don't feel like, is it being heard, is it being validated?

I mean, just so you know, I remember a buddy of mine who's Filipino and when Spider man came out and it had, he goes, my language is being spoken on, he was so excited of that validation. And I, and I realized just that he even told me, he goes, when I come to your house, like I had, I had my 40th birthday party.

I'm not going to tell how long ago that was. But when I did, he said, I was wondering, am I the only Asian? And I talked to another friend who's got PhD, he's from Korea.

My other friend was Filipino. And he said, I thought the same thing. Are there going to be any other Asians? I just don't think a lot of my.

Again, people that Sarah, my skin color, they don't even think along those lines. But it's important to see that the body is diverse. But I just want to hear your experiences.

Yeah, I mean, I'll share and then Sabrina, please jump in. I think one of the things that is unique to an Asian American and their discipleship with Jesus is this idea of biculturalism or even tri cult.

Like you can be a tricultural kid or you can be an adoptee. So there's like various ways that we enter into the culture and oftentimes you're kind of like, you're kind of in between various cultures.

And early on, I'm going to say this early on I was taught that that was a really good thing. And like, you know, like, you know how to be in this setting and then you can switch and you can be over here and you know, you can do that.

And you know, I realized, yeah, that is a gift to be bicultural. Like I can bring the gifts of different cultures into one another and help and you know, and you know.

But then I think as I got into my like mid-30s and late-30s, it started to feel less like A gift. I started getting super tired. Like, I'm like, this is tiring.

Like, trying to be the cultural ambassador for all these different groups to one another, you know, so I'm talking like, yeah, I'm talking like majority white culture with Indians, you know, or between Indians first and second gen, or the South Asian in a kind of a broader Asian circle, you know, or, you know, you just find yourself in all these spaces where you're constantly trying to speak for more than yourself. And. And in that space you can get. So you are trying to use it and leverage it. And, you know, it's a gift from God. You see all sorts of amazing bi.

Tri cultural leaders in the Bible. Like, they. They get pulled out of their places of origin and they're in a brand new place.

So whether that's Moses or Daniel or Esther or, you know, you name it, they're doing something in that space that's very, very Joseph. These are all great examples. But at the same time, you get really tired and you need God to meet you in a very kind of unique way.

And oftentimes, unless you're with another Asian American, that need is never addressed or ever brought up or seen as invisible or if you do a good job, quote, unquote, as a. At this, you just. You just disappear from every circle you're in.

You know, like, nobody sees you because you just did a great job just blending in everywhere you go. And. And at some point, even that hurts. You know, you're like, wow, I feel pretty unnoticed in this. Whatever setting I'm in, so.

And Jesus wants to speak to you in all of that, you know, so that's a piece of it. There's so much more. But you think, yeah, yeah, you know.

Yeah, we are writing to like, you know, Asian Americans, so second generation. And on definitely third, fourth, fifth, specifically around second generation. As you're asking about right now, I.

Think.

I was at an Asian American event and the parents of one of my friends there were sharing, like, you know, I do.

So the parents had immigrated and they said, you know, I feel for y'all because when we came to America, we knew it would be hard and we knew we wouldn't be accepted necessarily as immigrants and as first generation folks. But y'all kids, because you're born here and this is like your world, it makes sense that you wouldn't necessarily. You would.

You would expect to be accepted, but then you often aren't because of racialization, because of otherness, because, you know, just all these different things.

And it was just really healing, actually to hear a first gen person say that, like on reflection, I mean, they had figured this out after, you know, living here for a number of years, but they were saying, yeah, their kids are grown now and they're like, yeah, but I think as a kid, if you expect to be kind of. We didn't make the choice, right, to move. Right. We didn't make the choice to you sort of expect like, oh, this place will be.

But for many of us who grew up in spaces that were not very welcoming or are just majority without, because, you know, being in the majority gives you blind spots. Any kind of majority, right. So, you know, that's gender, that's, you know, ethnicity, ableism, like all that stuff, right.

So growing up in a place where people weren't aware of their blind spots, even. Even if they were the most well intentioned, right. There's just exclusion at different.

In different ways, you know, which we go into in the book and stuff.

So yeah, I think we were writing to try and help Asian Americans navigate faith, which because of majority culture and just the way faith is expressed often in the west, it's very individual or a particular way.

We were trying to say no, every people and every time has had to figure out what it means to follow Jesus, has had to discern what it means to follow Jesus from their particular geography, you know, people, group, socioeconomic status, like all that stuff. And so just trying to say, like, yeah, as Asian American. So, yeah, there's plenty of diversity.

There are some commonalities around, like communal, high value for communal, the families having immigrated or been refugees.

For many people, that's not as true for adoptees, of course, but there are some commonalities and we're trying to write to some of those while also holding like the diversities, right.

Like there's the cultural conflict, generational conflict, like in the parents chapter, you know, religious diversity, some of these different things. Racialization obviously is a huge. I mean, that's the reason why Asians are lumped together.

Asian Asians were basically defined by exclusion in immigration law.

They actually had a series of court cases that figured out who's not allowed, you know, and they basically lumped the continent of Asia and said, you're not allowed. So we're trying to like, I think write for. To tell stories of what it's looked like for people to discern following Jesus.

We were trying not to say, this is how you do it, right? Because of the diversity, because of like differences and some of those things.

And many of us have been just like prescribed so much, you know, like, so we're trying to just tell it through stories.

I don't think many of our audience is even familiar.

You mentioned, like, the colorization and even the diversity within those groups and the prejudices within specific ethics between the light tones or dark tones which you refer to. And I find that a lot of people that I interact with aren't even aware of those. And so you're.

What I, what I was reading was almost like a double isolation, is that you're, you're a bit alienated from the culture you've been brought into, willingly or unwilling. You're. Even though they might be born there, they don't feel at home in the majority culture.

Their parents don't necessarily understand because they've come in from that culture. And so you're in this exhausting place. Listen, as you said, it's exhausting.

I've talked to my friends where I've had some friends that are, that they're meliolic and they're in the church, and they were one of the few Asian families actually just any diversity. And I looked at, I said, I don't understand why you go to the Indian church. Not that I want you to, I don't. But what made you want to come here?

And they said, you know, our friends ask us the same question, why don't we go to the Indian church? Because we feel like we are to be bridges and ambassadors. But it's exhausting.

All the conversations, all the explanations that they have over and over and over again. And I want to applaud them, but at the same time, I want to give them rest.

You know, I want them to feel validated and loved and celebrated for our diversity. You guys have brought a very important.

Part of the conversation.

And you mentioned this, Sabrina, when you said that a new book is due. You know, this book is. Reason that this was due is that this is for this moment in time.

But do you hope, what do you hope to see in the next 20 years that your book helped carry the ball, if you will, using the football, American football metaphor. What do you hope that this takes the conversation for those that read it, that they might be able to do as a result of this?

And this question's for both.

I mean, I hope it sparks. I mean, so many hopes, but I, I think, I think I, I hope it sparks more imagination for what could be. You know, like, I definitely.

We weren't, we weren't trying to be the end all. Be all. I mean, the book captures a moment in Time right off. All authors deal with that. It's like, oh, you know, there's things.

I'm like, oh, I wish I could say that differently now, but, oh, well, the book's already in print, you know, like. But that's. The hope is that.

I think, Lindsey, you just said this earlier, hoping that others can add onto the conversation and bring more and that it'll get refined and that there'll be more stories, that other communities can also be more represented through, whether it's books or other venues.

And that I think that, you know, Asian American Christians of all backgrounds would feel would see more of what they have to bring, you know, to the global church. Not in a. Like, not in a. Like, now you have to bring your thing.

Like, not an obligation, but, like, I think for a long time it's been the internalized racism of, like, white stuff is better or other. Other people's stuff is better. Is. Is. I don't know what the right word is, but that's been a constraint. You know, I think. I think.

I think the process of even writing for me was so challenging, partly because it was like, putting my voice out there. And it's like, oh, I don't know if I want to put my voice out there because, you know, it opens it to a lot of critique. It opens, like. But.

And is my voice worth hearing? You know, all those things. I think all that is very. For many Asian Americans can be very strong because there's just all this internalized racism.

And, you know, so we hope. I hope there's. I hope there's just a lot more and more ways that stories that don't fit the, like, majority narratives, even of Asian America. Right.

Might be able to be shared and we can all learn from them. I hope it shows, folks, there's. There's other ways of. Other stories of following Jesus.

You know, like, we were writing for Asian Americans, but we also know that and invite folks who aren't Asian American to read the book because we think there's stuff for people to learn from it.

But we were really trying to write, like, keep that Asian American audience in mind, but also not be too, you know, like, not be too insider that somebody else couldn't read it and, you know, know what we were talking about. So I don't know, just a few sides. Lynson, love to hear yours.

I want to agree with Sabrina. I want. I want to see an activation of more. Right? I just want to see more.

More Asian Americans kind of feeling encouraged, fan into flame gifts that they want to bring, you know, to the table. And so I just want to see more and so around that.

But then I also want to see young Asian Americans own who they are in the country and who they are in their own space and in their own friend groups. So it's not okay at the end of the day as you follow Jesus to be, I don't know, like substandard white. That's not the goal, right?

Or, or I'm, I don't know, maybe you're really into certain gospel or, you know, biblical streams and it's calling you to be honorary black, you know. And like though all of those things are, are I, I get it.

And there's adjacency to those communities and stuff, but God actually still wants you to be who you really are. Like owning yourself and owning all the beautiful complexity that God was trying to bring together by making you, you know, and seeing that.

And so like, for example, one thing that kind of bothers me is like, if I see an Indian church somewhere in the city and I'm getting to know them, how they don't own themselves, they're somehow like second class, they don't belong. It's like they, they don't even know why they're there, you know?

You know, I don't, I don't like to see that, but I also don't like to see Indian Americans kind of in the back rows of mega white mega churches. And you see them, they're like, why? Why? And you know, like you were asking your friend, like, why are you here?

You know, and they don't own that either, you know, and so my hope is that they will be activated and own who, who they are.

And, and God will use somehow the combination of those two things, not just to bless your, our own people, but to bless all people in, in America, the global church, the non Christians, I think there's an expression of who God is that he wants to express through Asian Americans that will bless all people. So I really hope we get to a space like that.

You know, I, what we always tried to do as a church was we wanted people to be, if there was a group within our church, we wanted our leadership to be representative of that. Whoever was in the church and in the community. If this, if our community is diverse, our church should be diverse.

If our church is diverse, our leadership team should be diverse. We need to make sure that we, we do that.

How do we go beyond if, if we are trying to do multi ethnic say, and we put aside just the ethic for A minute because I know we talk about ethnic specific churches. How do we go about doing that without being poke it? Any thoughts on that?

Yeah, I mean, I could take a stab at it. And Sabrina, please, you wrote about it.

Some in your chat right now.

Yeah, yeah. I would say there is a way that when there's no relationship, like no deep. Like you're not an ecclesia.

Like that.

Yeah, yeah. You're not together, you're not one church, there's this feeling that I got to put this person up there as a. As a way of attracting.

It's like attractional, church model, all of that stuff. So like let's say Sunday morning, like this happened to a lot of our friends, right? Like they're. They were great musicians, great artists, whatever.

And it really made the band or the stage look diverse because you got this, I don't know, East Asian electric guitar player, right. And he's really good at what he does. But when it's. When Sunday services are over, he's not being invited to hang out or go grab food or whatever.

It was like there was already a group. You were just added to make us look a certain way, you know, so when there's no relationship to that representation, that's definitely.

You're heading down the road of tokenism. Right.

I would also say when there's not a sense of like, reciprocity, like if you put them up there to represent and they have a word that things need to change. And it's like, well, we need you to change and be this kind of leader for our church in order to get you up onto the stage. So I don't know.

I would say most Asian Americans would do their best to do that, but once they get to that place of leadership and they realize, yo, that I might be willing to do that, but you're not going to get more Asian Americans to the table by going through all those hoops.

And so the reciprocity is to hear from that person and allow systemic change to be able to happen in your church so that you can have a wider door and a more deeper bench and more gifts at the table from the Asian American community by learning from that individual. If you're saying, no, no, you made it through all these hoops to get here, everybody else should too. There's no reciprocity there.

That person is now a token, you know, so. So yeah, there's no relationship and no sense of like, I'm learning and like, we got to figure this out.

Because like I said, it was probably really Exhausting for that person to finally get to a place of, like, leadership or a scene or visible leadership at your church. But I'm telling you, most people won't want to do that. You should look at that trailblazer and ask for help to fix the system.

And when that doesn't happen, it's a token. Yeah. There's more, but I mean, that's just some.

No, no, I understand. This is. I mean, we could go on it. You can write a whole book just about that alone. You can just do that alone.

Sabrina, what do you want to say to that?

Yeah, no, I agree. I appreciate what you're saying. Listen, I think that's. That's right on.

I also think there's something about, you know, this is going to be different for different people and you'd want to find out what.

What would.

What would. What's meaningful for. For different communities and different people. But I think it is also exhausting to always go onto the other. The majority turf.

Yeah.

And so I think tokenism was. When you're always requiring that too, and never go in the other direction and sort of saying, oh, can I. You know, is there. Is there a way to.

To learn from your community or, you know, appropriately. Right. Like, you don't, like, just crash. Crash events and stuff like that, you know, I mean, like. But yeah, there's something about.

About doing your own learning.

Right.

That communicates that, that this isn't just about tokenism.

We were trying to do this kind of on multi levels. We even started trying to do different music, different cultures and backgrounds, even dress.

Like I would tell my people, I would say, whatever dress you want me to wear, I'll wear it because I want to celebrate you. I'm not trying to be demeaning, but people would be like, what are you wearing today? Like, what is this?

Because I wanted to honor.

That was my way of trying to honor. And we would also have international meals and have people pray in there, like, and try to do all that.

These are just some of the suggestions, but I think it's right. It's about sitting down. And you mentioned food, which I really appreciated.

And I know so many of my friends who have done ministry across their cultures, they said that's where you really find this table fellowship, this closeness, this relationship. You actually talked about food. I thought that was great. Why is food such a unifier and I hope breaking down walls. Any thoughts or is that in my head?

Is that in my head? Did I make it up?

No, no, no, no.

Okay.

No, sir, you Guys are both quiet.

Oh, no, I just stepped.

It's a big question. That's why it's a big question.

That's how it works on your Sabrina Apollos water is about the deep questions that we all wrestle with all the time.

I mean, one thing I'll say just to nuance our approach to this is, for example, I'll speak from my, My, my experience. When an Indian American joins, say, a majority white space, it's immediately assumed they're international. Right. So what's your favorite food? Sure.

Like, if you ask my kids, I mean, they might not say something.

Yeah, could be. Yeah.

Right.

You know, and there's, there's an expectation, almost like a, like a sense of, like, I'm expecting something exoticized from you because you don't fit the norm.

And, and, or there's almost a pressure that they should perform in this kind of frozen past, exoticized version of India that your church thinks about.

But, like, if you really look at India, India, India, what we think it is, it's not the Indian anymore, you know, and so, like, if you're asking, like, what do you, what do Indians wear?

Right.

You know, because there's a sense that I need to be a certain way and bring something like that to you versus being Indian American could mean that. Like I said. Yeah, it could be that. Yeah.

It might not be a single piece of Indian food that you thought, you know, or it may not be any kind of clothing, or it may not even be a language. Like, I can't even.

I can understand, like my, like what you were saying, Malayalam, but I can't speak it, you know, and so that's my experience as an Indian American. So if someone asked me, hey, could you come up here and sing a song in your language? I mean, are you kidding me?

Like, I'll learn, you know, to help you all, help everyone at the church, I guess, because I might be the only one adjacent to get that to you. So I might figure that out as an ambassador. But is that me? No, it's not. Right.

Right.

You know, and so there's like, there's some nuance to that. So like one, one, one quick story and I'll pass it to Sabrina. Like, I remember.

And this today still stings as a college student at the University of Texas, going to a Parachurch Ministry, not InterVarsity, asking if they would partner with me. Because I have so many South Asian American friends that I've gathered together, like at a dorm or apartment. We've been studying the Bible.

Some of them from our Hindu Muslim backgrounds are coming to faith. I need help. Like, I need you to help me reach my Indian American friends.

And they just barely listened to me and was like, we have another international student ministry. You can go check them out. I'm like, no, no, you don't quite understand. Like, I'm not international.

They're like, bro, we have an international student ministry. You can go check out.

And so that feeling right there goes to show how the American church isn't quite understanding what's happening to Asian America, you know, and it puts us in a place where to perform in a false way, you know, or we just have to check out of the space. The space doesn't. It's not safe for me or doesn't understand the evolution of America and what's happening in the midst of it.

And so I'll just share that. So I just wanted to nuance that question.

Right. I'm glad you did. Because the people that I was working with were first gen, so that was a little different gen.

I totally see what you're saying there. I'm glad you brought that to the table. Sabrina, what about you?

Yeah, you know, I'll tell you this one story. When I was new on staff within a varsity, my supervisor was a white man who.

And I was staffing an Asian American chapter, an Asian American fellowship, like, pretty large, mostly Chinese American. And there was just a lot of things I had to navigate. The ways my supervisor was encouraging me to do ministry. Some of them felt helpful.

Some of them felt like, I don't know if this is right, like, for our context. And I was trying to figure all that out. You know, I'm new in campus ministry as a staff.

I mean, I've done it as a student, but, you know, and there was just a lot I was trying to figure out. Like, what fits this context, what doesn't fit this context? Can I push back? Blah, blah. So there's a lot of, like, some conflict, to be honest.

Like, you know, And I remember one time, though, he. For a supervision appointment, he was like, I'd love for you to take me to a Cantonese restaurant. Would that be okay if we got lunch?

And I was like, I totally knew in my head. I was like, oh, David, is doing this so that he can build trust, like, come to my turf, quote unquote.

The thing I just said, I was like, I'm kind of annoyed. Maybe we were in a conflict. I don't even remember, But I remember my feeling of like, he's going to do this. He's doing this to build trust.

And I kind of feel annoyed about it. But we went, you know, I was like, well, I'm not gonna turn down. He's gonna pay. So, you know. You know, it's part of our supervision, right?

He's gonna. He's gonna pay for it. And.

And so, you know, I ordered my favorite things, you know, and he asked appropriate questions and, like, appreciated the food and stuff. And I was like, in the middle of lunch, I'm like, dang it, it's working. Like, I could feel it. I was like.

I could feel that, like, because he was like, you know, being intentional and not being, you know, not being, you know, exotifying or anything about that. Like, but just. It was just like, I'm like, it's good food. It's fun to share your food.

But I think part of the reason when you're asking, why is it such a big thing? You know, I think sometimes folks from other communities might think, oh, Asian Americans just like to eat.

And I'm like, no, it's actually not just that. It's, like, it's culture. It's community. It's an experience.

But also, I think so many of us have had that lunchbox experience where you bring your family's food to school and the kids around you flip out or, like, what is that? That's gross, you know, and that there's, I think, a redemptive piece of, like, eating together and sharing food.

And, like, there's something that means something, you know, which, you know, makes it all the more ironic now that some Asian foods are trendy and, you know, people who aren't Asian are trying to open restaurants that, like, capitalize on that. It's. It's a bit. I don't know. Frustrating is not a strong enough word. I can't think of the right word.

But, you know, so I think there's something about food is like, there's that celebration. There's experiences, communalness. But there's also like, hey, we like this. This is our saying.

This is a thing that we love, and we're just going to keep loving it. Even though, you know, for me, at least, I'm really. Like, when I was a kid, I. I stopped asking for those kinds of things to take to lunch.

I was like, you know, can I just take peanut butter and jelly? You know, just, you know, it was just too much, you know, But I think there's sort of like a reclaiming, you know, of that. So you.

You mentioned in the book, I mean, there's so many different factors that you mentioned. Tokenism, talk about the family expectations and vocation.

I don't think a lot of the people that I come, you know, the tribe that I come from, have a familiarity with the power of vocation in the Asian American experience and the expectations from family members. Describe that for a bit. Bring us on that journey so that we can understand further this. Because it's a pressure. It's a pressure that I.

That, as you mentioned in the book, that many people feel so much.

So you put it in the book.

That people need to understand it. And again, as you said, the people you wrote to, that's their lived experience all the time. There was a validation, someone understands me.

But bring us along in that journey, for those of us who aren't as familiar with it, to this power of an expectation and vocation.

And I just. I'll say two things and then let Linsen take it. I think one is you have to understand the communal identity. Like, it's just not a.

And I think that's hard.

I mean, that's hard for us as Asian Americans, too, because we're brought up in, like, a more Western individual place, but we also have these, like, strong communal roots and ties and obligation. And I mean that in the best way. I think obligation can be really good. So, you know, when.

When my friend in college, a white friend in college said, oh, yeah, my parents said that I should just do whatever makes me happy. I really thought you only saw that on tv. I was like, wait, they really said that? You know, like. And. And I just didn't understand that.

My parents had a lot of opinions.

You know, the flip side of it, though, was when she did do what she wanted to do after college, and it was a little bit hard, the vocation she had chosen was financially a little bit harder to me from the outside, not being from her community. It felt like, oh, your parents kind of just left you out there in a sense. But in their minds, once you turn.

18, you know, yeah, you're an adult.

You're. You're an adult. It's you, you know, you, you.

So there wasn't like, as much as the ties, like, they didn't have opinions, but they also weren't supporting in any Way like, I'm not even talking about financial. I just mean, like, emotionally relate. Yeah, yeah. How you doing? Or like, you know, like giving advice or anything like that. I had the opposite.

My parents had lots of opinions and all that stuff. You know, my parents are pretty, but. But also offer like with parent. Like as a. As a. As a parent now. My parents have a lot, have opinions sometimes.

Sometimes more than I'd like. But they're also quick to offer help. So there's like a. It comes like. I don't know, it's package, I guess. So that.

And then I would say the other thing is this is just context. I'm not gonna let you, Lynson, talk more about stuff.

But like, the other thing I would say is just survival mentality of immigration and refugee moving to a whole new place. The pressure to be able to establish yourself and provide for your family and often send money home. Right.

Provide for other relatives and stuff like that. That's a huge thing. Just two context pieces.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, yeah.

So, like, all of those decisions have to be made inside that context, you know, and like, for some parents, raising you here in America meant that so much was sacrificed.

And so you kind of hear that growing up, if you're a second gen, you hear the first gen stories and you hear that and your life is dramatically shaped by that.

So we had to do that. There was like, no other option. I mean, you were going to be a doctor, lawyer. I mean, maybe I was doctor, an engineer, and then maybe a lawyer.

You know, it was like, this is what you have to do to establish yourself in this country. And. And so, like, when you had friends who were like, I'm gonna get into art, you know, you're like, what?

You know, you know, you're just like, mind blown, you know that you would do that. And. But simultaneously there and from a Christian perspective, there's this vibrant, like, call from God to make an impact wherever you go.

So they would almost say to you, you're going to be an engineer, while you can hear them praying, lord, would you use our family, maybe our children for the propagation of the gospel? You know, you're like, how could you know you're just, like, trying to work out their spirituality and their hope for the next generation.

And built in, into that also is a sense that when they get old, you know, because they've set us up, we'll have enough to set up our kids, but also them, you know, and, like, we're all one unit. We got all. And you can't do that if you're, you know, doing something else. You know, you got to be able to keep the family unit together.

There's all this kind of expectation around it. So when you meet Asian American whose parents were like, you don't have to follow the Asian American dream. You can, like, say, go get into ministry.

That wasn't a cost for that one individual. It was a cost for the entire family. Like, they all had to lay something down before the Lord to let that person go into ministry.

Like, it was that the whole family was surrendering to Jesus, you know, at that moment.

And wasn't that what you wrote in the book? Was that your story that I. Yeah, I thought it was your story.

I mean, it could have been several of our stories, actually.

Well, but I mean, specifically when you talked about going in engineering, like, you mentioned ministry to your dad, and he's like, no, no. Yeah, no, I, I, I, I felt your pain. But then to see your dad come back, tell them, just tell that story really quick.

I think it's, yeah, it's right for people to hear.

Yeah. So, like, my parents said no to ministry, but they've been praying for.

They actually, they actually prayed that one of their sons would go into ministry. So I don't know if they expect my brother to do it. It's just so weird. How can you pray that?

I heard that part before.

L, you know, oh, my gosh. It can't get answered, you know. Oh, no. And, and they had experienced firsthand the persecution of being Christian in India.

The difficulty that we faced doing, going through that. My grandfather was a pastor too, so they were really worried about that.

And they knew God could provide, but they wanted us to move from survival to, like, success. And then, and being a pastor is just not the way to do that, you know.

And so I didn't, like, fight with him, but, like, like I said, I was in the engineering world for four or five. I think I was approaching my sixth year when God intervened to my parents, and they both had, like, different but very similar nightmares.

They didn't talk to each other about it. Finally, they talked to one of, like, we should probably pray for one another. Figure out what's happening.

And as they pray, God had revealed to them, I'm showing you this to awaken your sensibilities or your discernment around your oldest son. You've been like a stepping stone for him all this way. Why are you being a stumbling block?

And they were both just brokenheartedly realizing they were grieving God.

And so then they came and told me after I finally established myself as an engineer, and I was actually enjoying this kind of doubling life, you know, so I had, like, more to lose, you know, it's like I had followed the path and now I had. I felt like I was sacrificing more. As a broke college student, I could go right into ministry, right?

But this was like, you know, I just felt like I had. I had done what they asked me to do. Now it's gonna hurt to go into ministry, you know, I felt.

And they were like, hey, we're not forcing you, but if you do this, you have our blessing. And like, that was like a mountain had been moved, you know, in my life. And.

And then, you know, I remember, like, within a varsity and maybe other missions organizations you had to fundraise, which is the opposite of what you were doing before. And I remember my parents, like, with tears in their eyes.

I only had like 40 some people that I felt comfortable even sending a fundraising letter to. I couldn't even. I don't even know who I could send a fundraising letter to in my community. It's like 40 something people.

I remember they were all folded in an envelope with stamps and stuff and addresses. And I.

And my dad and mom, with tears in their eyes, put their hands on those envelopes and pray like, God, we don't know why you brought us in this country to kind of almost feel like we're repeating stuff with our son, you know, like, but could you somehow make this work and multiply it? Right? And they prayed over it.

I remember being very emotional, you know, because of that, because our vocation, our calling, it's all wrapped up in family, you know, it's just. It's. It's all together.

And then I would say any kind of quote, unquote, flourishing or success I've had in ministry is because, like, you know, you had praying parents.

You know, I mean, when I had to travel to do ministry, they came and got my kids, you know, like, they felt like they were doing ministry with me as they supported me in it, because once I made that decision, in their mind, they all had made that decision, you know, and we moved into kind of that together, you know. And again, that's just my lived experience. I'm sure other. There's others who could like, resonate with that.

But like back to Sabrina's earlier point, like, we can't make those decisions necessarily as individuals that are kind of all wrapped together. And this makes it really difficult and slow sometimes, but also makes it really rich and robust.

And I feel like I, I do, I do what I can do in ministry because of that.

So there's one more thought is just like, I think, I think scripture, actually the stories in scripture are much more communal than, you know, than our Western US Society, I think understands. So, you know, again, everybody has to figure out how to follow Jesus in the, in our time and place.

But, you know, when I look at scripture, I'm like, oh, there's a lot more happening there with families and peoples and interdependence, you know, versus independent thinking.

I always like to think with the people that I've tried to serve is that the gospel affirms something in every culture and it challenges something in every culture. And he uses cultures to act.

I mean, the scriptures are corrective, but sometimes those other cultures helps us to see things in scripture that we wouldn't see in our other cultural experience.

That's right.

So when I, because I come from an individualistic culture, but when I see the collective aspect and I've seen that play out in a variety of different cultures, I'm challenged because I want to go further, I want to go deeper. This is where we talked about this in the pre show walkthrough. I think that this, this conversation helps my vision of God grow.

I see God is bigger, not less.

And so when I hear about other cultures where they come to the gospel and people trying to get them to conform to a certain kind of Western white idea, I think that's just limiting. And I think also the world of the New Testament was a whole lot closer to many of these other cultural backgrounds than what we have now.

And I think it's a corrective. And that's one of the things I love to learn. I love to learn from other cultures and I hope other people do too.

And that's why I appreciate this book. And I know we've kind of come to the end of our time and you guys have been so generous. Thank you for giving so much of your time.

There's so many other things we could talk about too.

I mean, I wanted to get into the religious diversity and leadership and I mean, even the roles and the parents and part of it, but it starts a conversation. I just want to thank you both.

I'm sorry the other two couldn't be here, your co authors, because their perspectives, I'm sure would bring further out. I wanted to talk to LA about singleness. She wrote a lot on that and seeing this, just this idea playing out from everyone's different perspectives.

But you know, what we like to do often as we conclude our show is because we are Apollo's water, right? We want to give people kind of a proverbial water bottle, the water to sip on all week long, a truth to hold dear.

What's something that each of you could give as something for our audience to sip on as a result of this conversation today?

Even though a lot of the things that we talked about were maybe even tough conversations to even have, you know, maybe for some team and listen to, I would say it's actually joy that awaits you and your friends. If you're not Asian American. You're listening to this and you have some Asian American friends, especially if they're believers.

I mean, great joy awaits you as you deepen and get to know one another. And if you're Asian American listening to this, like, there's great joy in.

That awaits you in figuring out all the nuances of who you are, you know, And I know that sometimes it'll get tough and you have to have hard conversations and you need to clarify, you know, do all that. But it is joy that awaits you because, like, I think God intended for us to each hold all these different elements, like you were saying. And.

And then like, I feel like I love God and his plan and his purposes, like, you know, and his people. Like, I just see what God is up to when I get to know myself and my culture and as I share that and learn from others. So don't be.

Don't be driven by diversity quota. Don't be driven by, like, feeling like you got to do all these things and jump through the hooves.

Be driven by kind of kingdom joy that kind of deep within. So I would say think about that simple on that. I feel like that that's a great intrinsic motivator for everybody to kind of gauge.

You know, I was thinking about these kinds of conversations are hard, like you're saying, Lindsey. And there's. And we all make mistakes in them, you know, So I think I wanted to highlight that, like, just grace and the.

And that it is humbling to make mistakes and hard. But they've.

For me, they've been opportunities, like, you know, Whether it's intra racial or interracial mistakes that I've made, you know, like, I do think, you know, we didn't get to talk about it much but like, Asian Americans have a role to play in racial and social justice and different aspects.

And then even within the Asian American community, I've made mistakes in like inside the community, amongst different cultures and where, where we said earlier, like, being in the majority gives you blinders, you know, gives you blind spots.

But that's where I think, you know, having friends who can be the rear view mirrors can be the side view mirrors and having the humility and resilience to ask for forgiveness.

It's just that, yeah, like, nobody get, nobody engages these conversations in a perfect way all the time for sure, you know, so just wanting to like, put that word out there and say, like, there's, you know, what does it look like to have grace for oneself, have grace for others and continue to like, you know, do the work, to try, you know, so I don't want people to like, check out because it's like, oh, that's too hard, you know, or I can't do this, so. And we can't, you know, the Holy Spirit, you know, and God's grace is huge, huge for this stuff.

Those are good words.

Those are really good words.

I want to thank you for coming on the show, for sharing, thank you for writing the book, just helping bring us into your story to hear it, to really appreciate what God's done in your life, your ministries and God continue to bless you as you continue to serve him.

Culture conversations can be hard. There's no question about it. We're going to make mistakes, stumble, and just plain get things wrong. But the journey is worth it.

As Lenson says, there's joy in it. I know I made mistakes in the conversation and they were so gracious and helpful.

And I'm sure it is grating and frustrating to have to explain to someone their lived experience who just doesn't get it. And it's true. I don't, I don't get it. A lot of times I just don't. But I want to listen, I want to learn so that my vision of God can grow.

As we move into the global realities of the 21st century, connecting with people from other cultures is simply going to be the norm. It won't matter if we're in big cities or small towns, if we're in Peoria or Punjabi, Canton or Columbus.

The Apostle Paul speaks of the body of Christ as neither male nor female, slave nor free Jew nor Greek. He doesn't mean that these things aren't real or somehow don't matter, but that worldly divisions and definitions are undone in Christ.

All of us can belong to him, regardless of gender, status or ethnicity. In Revelation, John speaks of every tribe and nation, praising God. Who we are matters to God, but He doesn't include or exclude us because of it.

I don't know about you, but I found this to be a very important conversation. I don't want to be guilty of tokenism, and it's important for me to think about that.

Really, understanding the tricky space that the children of immigrants occupy is extremely important. They were often living in multiple worlds.

While they are ambassadors, whether they like it or not, it's important for the rest of us to give them space to rest. We have barely scratched the surface of this book, in part because we only had two of the four authors.

And like I said, at times it made me uncomfortable because I didn't know if I was stepping on a proverbial landmine. Was I saying something offensive? Did I not grab a hold of what they were saying? I don't want to speak ignorantly.

I want to be able to speak intelligently, compassionately, and listen and learn. I don't always agree with everything in any of the books that we read, but in the main issue I find myself in complete agreement.

But understanding these authors and what people in their situations have gone through helps me to love them better, to see God more clearly. It helps me to be more like Jesus. And if you are interested at all in how to engage people from other cultures, well then read the book.

If you're new to our show, we make it a point to listen to people from other cultures as much as we possibly can. And you can go back and listen to our conversations with Henna Nation and the Chinese Church or Taylee Lau about why shame can be a good thing.

Or Daniel Yang or George Yancey or Trillia Newbell or Felicia Wu Song or Nick Ripken or Audrey Frank.

I mean, these are all conversations that take us into different cultural spaces other than our own, so that our vision of God might grow and we might be further equipped to build these relationships, to learn from them, and to be able to adapt so that the church might continue to grow and show the reality of who God is. I hope that you have found this conversation helpful as you seek to pursue Christ's mission in all of life.

I want to thank our Apollo's watered team for helping us to water the world. This is Travis Michael Fleming signing off from Apollos. Watered. Stay watered, everybody.

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