#34 | Rediscovering Hospitality: A Lesson from Eastern Cultures | Jayson Georges

It's watering time, everybody.

It is time for Apollos Watered, a podcast to saturate your faith with the things of God so that you might saturate your world with the good news of Jesus Christ. My name is Travis Michael Fleming, and I am your host. And today we're. We are having one of our deep conversations with my friend Jason Georges.

Now, I wanted to bring Jason on the show because I read a book of his several years ago that really changed my perspective and how I saw, understood, and interacted with the world. The book was entitled 3D Gospel.

What I liked about the book is not only that it showed me how to interact with the world, but it explained the world in terms that I could understand. Jason has a unique ability to communicate very difficult truths to us in very tangible ways.

And this book really did help influence my perspective and enabled me to engage in conversations with people who looked and sounded differently than myself. I wanted to do this because, number one, those were the people that I saw within my world.

And number two, I take God's command to make disciples of all nations very seriously. And before I go overseas, I need to be able to cross the street. I need to be able to interact with the people that God has already placed around me.

And that's something that many of us have a very hard, hard time doing because we want to build relationships with people that look and sound like us. We don't like to work at relationships.

We don't want to have to think about making mistakes or saying an offensive thing or fear that we're compromising ourselves as we interact with people of different religions, afraid, perhaps that we might be proven wrong and they might be proven right, or fearful that we may not have the right answers.

These are just some of the fears that come up in our minds whenever we talk about building relationships with people who look and sound different than ourselves. But Jesus calls us to go and make disciples of all nations.

And it's in the unity or the diversity of God's people and the unity that comes from that diversity that God's name is glorified. Just as Jesus prayed in John chapter 17.

I pray that they may be one as we are one, talking about the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, so that the world may know that you sent me. It's an incredible truth when.

When you can have people from all different backgrounds, and I mean culturally, linguistically, geographically, socioeconomically, put your qualifier in.

And when people that are so different can be unified in such a way that brings God's name glory, and that just Brings me back once again to why I wanted Jason to come onto the show. He's great at explaining very difficult truths so that we can understand them in very tangible ways.

He's a great conversation partner, and he's going to illuminate for us today these concepts of honor and shame, something that he calls the world's operating systems.

Every culture has its own way of looking at the world, their own cultural viewpoint, their own operating system that incorporates its own values and beliefs as well as virtues. And without even knowing it, that's how they see the world and how they evaluate other worlds, as well as even the gospel message.

So my encouragement for you is that you might be grown, that you might be challenged, that you might think differently, and that you might be equipped in a greater way so that you can take this information and not just hear people talk about it, but that you might begin talking about this and how. How others see the world.

With your friends, with your family, with your co workers and your classmates in the hope that you might be able to be a bridge.

You might be able to win them to Jesus, or if not, win them, plant the seed or at least start the conversation or play your part in that conversation that you might really water your world.

So listen in to this conversation, this deep conversation with my friend Jason Georges as we talk about these concepts of honor and shame and how they influence us in our world today. Happy listening, Jason. Welcome to Apollos Watered.

Thanks, Travis. It's a pleasure to be here.

It's great to have you on the show. I just read your bio and you're doing a lot.

And I know we can't disclose where you're at, except you're in the Middle east, you're operating in many ways under the. Under the surface, and you are doing some pretty unique ministries. But before we get into that, I just want to start off with our fast five.

And these are five things about you. I'm going to ask you a question. It may be this or that or it just may be a short answer, but five things. Are you ready?

Yeah.

Okay, here we go. This is an easy one. Book or tablet?

Book. All day? Any day?

All day? Yes. Okay. Why do you like books so much?

Oh, man. I just have to. I have to have the visual layout. Like, I just have to know if, like, how close I am to the end of the book.

Whereas on a tablet or my Kindle, I just don't have any spatial sense and I get lost. I can't organize my ideas without a visual geography.

I am the same Way. The only way that I've been using a Kindle is that it's cheaper and I don't have a. Have to store it anywhere, so. But I'm a book all day.

I like feeling the pages, just like you. I don't know if that's just our age or what, but I'm like, you are. Okay, here's the next one on your phone. What is your wallpaper right now?

Oh, it's a picture of my wife and I kissing each other. And I like it because blue is my favorite color. I'm wearing a blue shirt. She's wearing a blue jacket, and the sky's blue behind us.

And so just the aesthetics of it, I really enjoy.

Oh, that's awesome. I love that. That's so good. Okay, here we go. Here's one. A little bit of American culture thing. DC or Marvel?

I hardly know what you're talking about because I don't watch any fictional movies. I only watch documentaries.

Awesome. Okay, that's even better. All right, fictional. So you watch documentaries. Okay, so let's go with that, then. Documentary. Where do you. How about this?

Where do you. Where do you get your documentaries? Or wait, how about this? Documentaries in the. In American history or world history. How about that?

Oh, man. Anything will go when it comes to documentary. So, I mean, I've been enjoying some archaeological documentaries on Netflix.

And so we're listening to lectures like on the Teaching Company, the great courses, stuff like that. But, yeah, pretty much if I watch any sort of movie or TV show, I literally fall asleep within five minutes. It, like, drugs me.

Really?

Yeah.

Wow.

I feel bad for my family, but, man, I'm like an old grandpa.

I love that, though. Okay, well, let's see this. Okay, how about this?

Now, I don't know you very well, but I'm going to throw this out just because I'm curious, because I did something like this with Randy the other day, and he freaked me out with his answer. So I'm going to throw this out to you. Rap music or classical music?

Okay, here's another thing, man. You're just hitting all my buttons. So I don't listen to any music, like, ever. I've never owned any music. And so I really enjoy solitude and silence.

But if I had to pick, I would probably go classic between those two options. But did Randy. I'm guessing Randy said rap.

He did. He freaked me out. He said he listened to Lecrae.

Yeah.

I'm like, randy, that freaked me out. But I'm like, you are.

It drives my Wife and my, my kids crazy because every time I get in the car with them, I actually turn the radio off because I can't think.

Yeah.

And I like it quiet. And if I do, I'll have like a movie soundtrack on in the background. But, yeah, I, I'm a lot like you are.

I don't have a lot of music and it drives my wife and my daughter bonkers.

Yes.

But here we go. Here's, here's, here's number five. A weird habit your wife or your kids say that you do or have some weird habit that you have?

Well, they would probably say fall asleep during movies all the time. But another one that I have, I don't know, probably just always, like, have a book in my hand of some kind or always really enjoy learning.

And so I think they know me as some sort of, like, curious academic.

That's okay. That's not bad. It's amazing how our kids perceive us.

I was talking to Josh Bailey years ago, and Josh Bailey is the son of Mark Bailey, who used to be the president of Dallas Theological Seminary. And I was in college with him. We were undergraduates together. And I asked him the question.

I said, when did you know that your dad was a really smart guy? And he said, I didn't. For the longest time.

I thought he wasn't very smart at all because he couldn't help me with my algebra or my high school homework. He goes, and then one day I came home, I was a sophomore in high school, and I said, mom, where's dad? And she goes, he's speaking at Harvard.

And he's like, what? Dad's speaking at Harvard. He's like, I thought my dad wasn't very smart at all because he couldn't help me with my homework.

So I think that's just the way of some academics. You know, our kids want to know who we are and what we do and. Yeah, those kind of things. But.

So you've written some books, 3D gospel ministering and honor shame cultures and several other things.

I mean, you created honor shame and just, just the whole website and all about the honor shame test, the cultural test, and right now you're doing an in depth study of hospitality. Let's. Let's talk about hospitality. Why are you even studying such a subject? What precipitated your interest in them?

Yeah, so part of it is, I'm actually, it's part of my doctoral research in the area of New Testament.

And rather than viewing, I'm really interested in this idea that early Christianity was a social group, and they didn't sit around and write books, they didn't sit around and discuss academic ideas. I realized that we have, their letters have come down to us. And so we have the result of a few, you know, times where they did pin out their ideas.

But for the most part, early Christianity as it emerged around the Mediterranean basin was essentially a social group that was interacting with one another.

And remember back in that day, if you ever wanted to interact with one another or share an idea or communicate or gossip about someone, you had to physically travel. Right. Like, no information and no news was able to get communicated to other people without physical mobility.

And so my focus of research is trying to understand the meaning of early Christian travel and hospitality. Another reality is when you traveled, there weren't any hotels along the way. And so you had to host people or you had to be hosted.

And therefore hospitality becomes a very significant aspect of the early Christian movement.

As, you know, these apostles or the itinerant preachers are going around, you know, or think about Paul, he's sending, you know, Timothy or Titus or different figures around to the different churches and writing these letters of introduction to them so that they're well hosted and things and so forth. And so all that I'm trying to situate in the context of kind of the ancient honor shame culture and ancient patterns of travel.

What did all that mean for the early Christians?

So, okay, then let's go back just for a second because that's pretty awesome stuff. But in the West, I find that people have different definitions of hospitality. Some see it as the love of strangers.

Other people say that it's just opening your home. How do you define hospitality or describe it for us?

Yeah, so hospitality, it does have all of those definitions. Obviously in the west it does refer to that you, you know, you're opening up your house.

The simplest way to view hospitality is it's when you exchange resources. Usually it's around a table when you're sharing food in a non mercantile way that is, you know, it's not a business transaction.

So you're giving someone something and you're not expecting a payment in return.

And that usually happens as people come into your house, you share a meal together, and you don't give them a bill at the end of that meal the way that, you know, a restaurant would if they were to go to a restaurant.

And so because of that, because of that exchange and sharing the food together, it creates a relational bond or creates a reciprocal relationship between the two people. And of course, there is a sense of Debt, but it doesn't get paid financially at the end of the meal.

It often gets kind of paid later as that person invites you back over to your house or, I'm sorry, invites you over to their place.

So what really made you want to study this? I mean, what, what brought this in interest to you? I mean, to study hospitality is one thing.

To pursue a PhD in studying hospitality is something altogether different. I mean, you described it a bit, but what personally really just struck you that made you go, I want to know what the New Testament says about this?

Yeah, I think it's, you know, Randy Richards actually did his Ph.D. on the, what's called the Emmauses. That is the person who wrote the letters of Paul.

So Paul didn't actually write his letters by hand, but he dictated them to someone who wrote the letters. And so Randy Richards wrote his dissertation on that.

And stuff like that is really fascinating trying to get behind the kind of social patterns of early Christianity. And when I read like Acts or the Gospels, you just see people moving around a ton. And it's quite remarkable how much people travel.

And I wanted to try to. It just captures me. I live in the Middle East, I live in that part of the world.

And so a lot of these places mentioned in the Bible I have, you know, personally visited.

And so part of it is just, you know, being being close to the area, reading the Bible and having a curiosity about kind of the social history of early Christianity and then hospitality, obviously all throughout this world is very significant. And I think it's probably one of the main ways that people express their honor shame values.

It's kind of a main expression of these values of honor and shame.

Okay, well, let's. Now you brought that up and that's been your kind of your area of expertise. I mean, you've created even just almost.

I mean, I know other authors have talked about it, but you've created really an entire umbrella for people to understand this context of honor shame. We hear about this in the west, and I know those who are listening in India, Bangladesh, this is your world. And.

But many still don't understand what honor shame is. As we become more globalized in some places, they, they've kind of lost some of that. They've shifted away from their host culture.

Describe what honor shame is and really how we might need to understand that because as you've, you've really brought out, it's really what's going on in much of the New Testament. It's not so far away from us as we assume, but it's also still being practiced today, so.

So describe to us what really brought this out and what honor shame is and these honor shame values.

Yeah, that's a good question. So honor and shame is difficult to understand because it's so abstract. It's not on the surface.

And, you know, it's not like a chair or it's not like, you know, food that often define, you know, elements of someone's culture. But the way I describe it, Travis, is that honor and shame, it's like the operating system or the code on your computer.

It's what operates or functions, you know, behind the scenes. And so honor and shame is essentially kind of the moral values of a culture.

And especially in cultures that are more collectivistic, which would refer to biblical cultures, majority rural cultures, and cultures in most part of the world. And this is where people get their main identity by virtue of the group that they belong to.

So collectivistic society is going to be contrasted to an individualistic society, like what we have in the west, and we're familiar in America, where everyone is kind of an entity unto themselves, and they're defined not by who they're related to, but they're defined by their own essence, by their own ego, by their own interests and desires. And so honor and shame kind of becomes the moral glue that keeps people related, relating to one another. It keeps the group together.

And so honor is essentially, it's a positive reputation in the eyes of other people, and then that causes them to want to relate to you and to be in relationship with you. And so in these contexts, you know, being in relationship, being connected, is very significant. It's how life is sustained.

And then shame is the flip side. It's a negative reputation that causes people to disassociate with you, and it leads to I. Alienation and separation from the group.

That's kind of a short definition of.

It, and which is awesome, by the way, because I'm seeing what you're doing. And. And though you're examining the.

The scriptures and shame and you're seeing it also within the culture that you're in, we're seeing a revival of it in many ways, or at least in the.

The popular verbiage or within pop culture, we hear about terms such as fat shaming, slut shaming, mom shaming, all of these different adjectives or qualifiers for shaming. And you're seeing almost, I don't want to say revival of shame.

Shame's always been there, but least on the mind of those within our popular global culture. And what can we learn? I mean, really, how do we, how do we take these concepts and apply them in our modern day Christian walk?

I mean, how do we understand shame? How do we try to apply this? Because not all shame is bad. We know that there's actually a biblical shame that's good and there's some negative shame.

There's good shame. I mean, I'm sure you've got the qualifiers and the right definitions, but as we're looking at this. Let me just stop for a second. How about this?

Why is this important for us in our modern globalized world to understand?

Yeah. Well, I think it's important to realize that honor and shame are not just majority world values.

They're not African or Asian, but they're, they all, they go all the way back to Adam and Eve.

So remember, Travis, when Adam and Eve fell and, or, you know, they ate the fruit in the Garden of Eden, the first thing they did was they hid and covered. That's the hallmark of shame. And then the, you know, and even before that, the text specifically says that they were naked yet unashamed.

And then Paul, you know, in Romans 3:23, says, all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, or they lack the glory of God.

And so this sense of shame, it's a fundamental problem that all humans have, and we've all experienced that, that sense of vulnerability, of deficiency, of disgrace, that, that sense that, oh, no, there's something about me that's deficient. That is deficient and I need to hide from other people.

And so because of that, it's a core drive that, you know, or a core disease in the hearts of everyone, in all of our souls, that's just so disruptive. And you see that. And when people experience shame and feel shame, they feel diminished.

And what they're going to do in order to, you know, hide over that sense of diminishment is try to exalt themselves.

And they're going to start appealing to false, false identities, to a false sense of honor, whether that be through violence, whether that be through nationalism. They're going to figure out ways to assert their honor and say, you know what? This is how I am actually better than other people.

And all that is an effort to cover up shame. I don't want to get, you know, too muddled into the world of, you know, kind of the social issues and politics of America right now.

But you see a lot of those dynamics going on as well, specifically at kind of a macro level.

But just realize as well, Travis, you Know, even as we engage with people one on one, whether it be a neighbor, whether it be, you know, someone in the church who is hurting, there's often a sense of shame that just plagues our hearts within Christians, within non Christians. And the good news of that is that Jesus actually addresses that.

He takes not only the guilt of our sin, but he also takes the shame of our sin, and he restores us to a place of honor in his family. And so there's some, you know, the Bible offers incredible theological resources for addressing this issue of shame.

And one of the best ways that we can actually communicate that, obviously verbally, theologically, you know, talking about scripture, where God has exactly exalted us, he's raised us up, he has honored us.

But then we can embody that tangibly through hospitality, by sitting with people, by eating with people, that tangibly communicates divine honor to people.

So when you're in, because you're in the Middle east and you've done this, I mean, can you describe really what that looks like in just a normal relationship with someone? How does that play out? I mean, I get the theoretical of it. How does that really play out practically?

Is there an example that you can think of, think of to help us understand it a bit further?

Yeah, I think it just means allowing for disruptions. And so in the country I'm at, people will often drink tea or coffee together.

And kind of wherever you go, whenever you see any acquaintance, kind of the standard after you say hello, the standard kind of response is, hey, do you want to get some tea together? And so.

Or either that means going out to a public cafe or if you're near their house, it's like, oh, come on over and have tea together, have a meal together. And so I think practically it's allowing for hospitality to happen.

I think in the, you know, in Western context, hospitality often has kind of a time frame. Maybe it's an hour, hour and a half, and then, you know, both people kind of move on.

But I think in this part of the world, in many cultures of the world, hospitality and sharing in a relationship around a meal just can go on for a long time. And so just allowing for that, allowing for those sacred disruptions to your schedule, which is awesome.

And especially, I think hearing that and seeing how it plays out in your context and in the West, I do find that we. We are not as hospitable in many ways. We've lost some of that. I mean, there are pockets of it. I know some people that are extremely hospitable.

They're always opening their homes. They're always having people over. But I know some people are saying, I don't know how to do this. I mean, it's pretty simple when you come down to it.

It's not rocket science. It's just inviting someone over and having a snack or a meal together and building a relationship together. Wouldn't you say that?

Yeah, for sure.

I mean, that's what it comes down to is just opening up not only your home at a physical level, but really opening up your heart and opening up your life to other people and creating, you know, creating the space for that to happen. And realize that as you, you know, the.

The food or whatever you share together in that hospitality event kind of becomes symbolic of the relational ties.

Well, and so, you know, you're mentioning something here and you're speaking my language, because I find that in the west, whenever we're talking about hospitality, we either, we first of all do see it as a disruption, and then secondly, we get nervous because we're afraid of people seeing our imperfections and. Or perhaps making a mistake, not knowing what to say or what to do.

And I think a lot of Christians, especially those who really take the Bible seriously or have grown up in the west specifically, not so much in the east, but they don't know how to build relationships with people who are different.

They feel like they're going to be compromised or they're compromising their faith or it's going to be awkward, or they're not going to know what to say or they're going to say the wrong thing. How do we deal with those issues?

Because in many ways, what we're doing by being hospitable, we're trying to build a relationship so that the Gospel can be just freely shared. The life can be shared with someone else. Wouldn't you say that's part of why we practice hospitality?

Yeah, I would say that's definitely a part of it. I would even maybe push it a little bit further. It's. Travis, it's not just that we do hospitality as a means to sharing the gospel.

I would say there is an element of it in which hospitality actually becomes an embodies the gospel itself. And so when you look at the Book of Acts, it's really interesting. You know, Paul, he first goes to synagogue and then he gets kicked out.

And then what happens is when he goes to the Gentiles, they're always welcoming him into his house. And so the way they're articulating their faith or their faithfulness, Their. Their trust is through hospitality.

And then there's this really interesting letter from the apostle, one of the Apostolic fathers. It was this guy named Clement. He lived in Rome about one generation after the apostles, late first century.

And he says several times that we are saved by faith and hospitality. So he gives these examples of, you know, he says, look at Abraham, look at Lot, look at Rahab.

In the Old Testament, they were saved by faith and hospitality.

And so, you know, throughout Scriptures, there's this sense of as we demon, as we display hospitality, as we share resources, as we share our life, as we share home, as we share food, that is a demonstration of our trust in God and understanding who God is as the one who provides for us and as the one who is working through us to bless other people and to reconcile all people to one another, as Ephesians talks about. And so I would say hospitality, it's not simply a tool or a mechanism, but it's actually a virtue.

And I think that's something that we have, you know, perhaps lost sight of in the West.

I totally agree. I've never even thought of it that way. That kind of put me. You're geeking me out a little bit.

I'm getting excited here because I think having worked with different ethnicities, different cultures, that's such. Really, it just shows your love for people. It shows your love for God. You're doing life together. You're bringing them in.

But I think so many in the west want the. They want to make sure that person's okay before they bring him in. They're afraid to encounter the messy. They're afraid to encounter the different.

They're afraid of somehow compromising, or they just might be too busy and don't feel like they have the margin to be able to do such a thing or even know anybody. How do we really broaden our understanding in order to. Or bring it down even further? Let's make it simple. What can some people just do to.

I don't want to say overcome the fear, but to be more hospitable, what needs to change? Is it a mind shift? Is it a church shift? Is it just exploring what the Bible says about these issues?

I mean, what are some tangible things that we can do to help change our mind on these issues?

Yeah, that's a good question. I think at the root of it, there's kind of some theological question marks that I would have.

And since recognizing that if we feel like other people are not worthy to be hosted, then we need to look at God's hospitality towards us as the one who invites us to his table, as the one who says, come to me and rest. That word, rest, was actually kind of a technical. Technical term for come, be in my house. Like, be a. Be a guest and let me host you.

So Jesus's invitation is essentially that of a host to us, the guest to come to him to be in his presence and to be his guest. And so I think, obviously, we are unworthy of that.

We don't deserve the gift of God's salvation, to be welcomed into his family, to be, you know, invited to his table in that way. But think of all the parables that Jesus talks about. You know, how.

Talks about hospitality, about, you know, someone throwing a great banquet and going out and inviting people, and those people not coming. Or the way Jesus, he not only communicates that sort of.

He not only communicates salvation through this idea of hospitality in his parables, but in his life as well. He's always getting accused of eating with the wrong people, right? And so that's really what makes the Pharisees all upset.

He's like, dude, this guy's eating with the sinners and tax collectors. Doesn't he know what he's doing?

I mean, how could this be a person of God if he's eating with such, you know, with such people who are, you know, disgraceful or who are not religious like us Pharisees? And so I think at the core, it's a. We need a. A fresh theological understanding of God's hospitality towards us.

And then that reframes our own hospitality and we have a much better desire, or that gives us a better context in which to understand Christian hospitality specifically.

So you've really piqued my interest now. So I'm looking. I'm thinking of different passages in scripture, like Revelation 3:20, where Jesus says, behold, I stand at the door and knock.

If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come into him and eat with him and he with me. So there's this hospitality and acceptance idea. That's what you're talking about there, right?

Yeah, yeah. You know, John one talks about that, how the word became flesh, and he, you know, dwelled among us, but he was not accepted.

And so it kind of goes two ways. There's this idea of God moving towards us, and we need to receive him. But then there's also a sense in which we are invited towards him.

And Jesus, you know, Jesus all throughout the Gospels, he's both going to people sitting at their table, like Zacchaeus, you know, remember Jesus is the guest, but he honored Zacchaeus the host by being in his presence. But then many other occasions, Jesus is pulling other people to inviting them to be his guest.

And so, yeah, all throughout Scripture, you'll start seeing this. Yeah, this theme of hospitality really playing out theologically quite a bit.

So here's. Here's one for you. And I, I just.

Because I've wrestled with this, because I've often heard, just like you in the reference, the verses you've referenced, Jesus eats with the tax collectors. He eats with the sinners. He engages them. But yet then I go to First Corinthians, chapter 5, where.

Where Paul is writing, and he says, you know, I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people. Not at all meaning the sexual immoral of this world or the greedy and swindlers or idolaters who, since then, you would need to go out of the world.

But now I'm writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler, not even to eat with such a one. What do we do with that? How do we gauge that within this hospitality matrix or rubric that you've given us that lens?

Because I'm with you, I believe we need to open up our homes. I've done that. My wife and I have had some.

So many people from all over the world and engaging in fellowship, and yet I see this instance and I go, okay, wait. There is a moment.

And maybe it's the brother category, like the person who's an unbeliever I reach out to, but the person who is a believer and is living in complete rejection of God by their life. I don't even eat. I withdraw hospitality. Would you agree with that? Or would you. Would you put another lens on it? I mean, how do we view that?

Yeah, yeah. Kind of two things come to mind. I mean, obviously, yeah, that's a hard passage. Paul is, you know, laying down the law and drawing a line in the sand.

One is just to observe, you know, what does Paul say to the command ultimately to do in this passage? It's not, you know, go and rebuke that person, kick them out of the church.

Isn't it interesting that he says, don't eat with that person, as if eating is what defined the brotherly relationship with that person to begin with. Right.

So you see how symbolic eating was in the relationship before and how that all of a Sudden becomes the determinative meaning for, you know, when this relationship needs to end, this is the form it's going to take. You're not going to eat with that person. So again, just kind of highlighting the role of hospitality in Christian relationships.

And then the other one, I would say, yeah, when you stop eating with someone, what that means is, um, it's a. It's going to sound harsh, but hear me out till I in on this. Essentially, you are shaming that person and you are disgracing that person.

And Paul constantly does that throughout the letter of First Corinthians and other places. I think it's chapter six. In chapter 12, he says, I say this to your shame.

And so Paul realizes that shame can actually be a good tool for moral development in people's lives. Right. It's not the kind of shame that buries people and says, you're utterly worthless.

It's the type of shame that's restorative and that is seeking to convict people of their sin and help them see, you know, what your sin is actually causing you to be separated from God and you're in a state of shame before God. And so my relationship with you, how I'm going to, you know, hold back hospitality from you temporarily, is symbolic of the disgrace that you have.

You have brought to God's name and therefore you have before God. And I want you to be aware of that, to churn from that and to have that shame, you know, the.

The shame of your sin covered so you can be back in relationship with God. And then we can embody that and practice that through mutual hospitality and eating together again. And so I.

I understand this in light of Paul saying elsewhere, I think it's one or. Sorry, First Corinthians, 6:13, 6:12. He says, you know, I say this to your shame.

Paul wants the Corinthians to be shamed, but again, not to be buried under this mount of condemnation. But he wants them to be exposed.

Maybe that's the better word, to be exposed so that they are restored again and brought back to that place of honor within the community. What do you think about that, Travis?

I think that's an awesome insight.

You know, I know there's a book that came out recently, or maybe it's a little bit, a little while ago, called Defending Shame by Taylee Lau, who's a professor at Trinity. And because I think in our culture today, we want to. We. It's funny, we try to use shame, especially from a.

Not from a Christian perspective per se, but from A cultural perspective to get people to get in line with what our cultural values are. And yet we hear people say, like, we need to be done with shame while we are using shame to get people to agree with us. So I find.

I find that quite funny. But I do think that what you're saying is right, because I do think that we can't jettison shame completely or would be jettisoning the Bible.

There is a restorative aspect.

There is this idea of bringing shame into a person's life to show them that they are outside of what God has willed, especially for those who are brothers and sisters, who are living outside of God's commands. But it's a hopeful aspect not to put them out so that we show that we're better than, but to show God's view.

And I think God's sorrow that God loves with that. So there's this powerful aspect to hospitality.

And I think with what you're doing, looking at how you're doing honor, shame, and understanding that, I just think it's so important that you're bringing such a lens while you're doing this in other cultures.

I find that, as you said before, it's not just one culture where this is located, but it's not something that we in the west often use in the same manner that we often think about it, that it has different categories or expressions perhaps in our culture than it does in those in the East. Now, as we're though, interacting with people from all over the world and in our. In the west, we. We have all the cultures that are there.

How do we use the category of honor, shame to. To build these relationships or to understand them better? Because as you said, it's the world's operating system.

And that makes me stop and go, okay, well, what's my operating system? What is it traditionally for those in the West? And I know that it's a spectrum because we all come from cultural backgrounds.

We all have our different ethnic makeups and histories. We are a land of immigrants. And there's not one necessary complete cultural operating system that we all have. But there are characteristics.

Those who have been in the west for any period of time, who have worked or gone through the educational system, have. What are some of those? What's the operating system? I suppose that is the general operating system that we see active in the west today.

And how does it differ from honor and shame?

Yeah, I would say two words come to mind on that, Travis.

I would say independence and efficiency are kind of some core, deep rooted values that structure American life, you know, when it comes to how you spend your time, how you structure your life, how you spend your money and different things, people are seeking to be independent and going to be efficient. But the conflict comes that, to be quite honest, hospitality is quite the opposite of that. It is interdependence.

And it's at one level it's quite inefficient, but on another level, it's efficient in the sense that it's a great way to develop your, you know, your relationships in a social network in that way.

And so I would say as you, you know, as you and as others think about ways to engage with people from honor, shame context, especially in hospitality, one is be willing to be interdependent and be inefficient, and so allow yourself a sense of comfort with that because you're going to feel uncomfortable in those situations, both when you have people into your house, not knowing how it's going to go, what's expected, so on and so forth, but also when you go over to their house and, you know, knowing how to interact or how to be a host.

And so one of the most simple things that I try to tell people is it's not just being a host to honors people, but also being a good guest is a great way to honor people.

And so what that does is it communicates to people as you receive, as you sit at their table, receive their food, accept their extravagant generosity, is that they have an honor to give to you. And now I know as a Westerner, and I've seen that happen many other times, Westerners at the table are off, don't want to be a burden.

And so they don't accept something, they try to minimize it, try not to eat too much, don't take anything home with you, don't accept any gifts.

And what that essentially does is say, no, thanks, you don't have anything to honor me or anything to offer me because you don't have an equal honor with me. I'm a better status than you. But when you receive from that person, it's a way of saying, wow, you actually have something to give to me.

We are honor peers. And so I would like to reciprocate that honor. I'd like to receive it from you and then repay that.

And so I would say, as your guest, you know, welcome and receive their generosity and then look for ways to thank them for that and to highlight to, in essence, repay that honor. And so to create a more reciprocal relationship where there's just a free flow of honor between people.

I think you've just freaked some people out because some westerners and I've traveled a bit and I've seen Westerners do this is. They see, like I was in Uganda, went up to a mud hut. We had to hike up a mountain to go to this mud hut to visit this family.

It's a gift giving culture. They gave us some, they called them Irishes, which are potatoes. And we were, you know, to take them and we did, and we brought a gift in exchange.

And then they were to offer us food. And we knew just looking at the family, they didn't have, the children didn't have shoes, they. Their clothes were ragged.

And we knew that quite possibly that if they, if we ate that food, they, these children wouldn't eat. But yet we knew that if we didn't, we would be insulting them and dishonoring them, that it was a real honor. How do we take that mindset?

Because you're right, as Westerners, we feel like we're a burden. We don't want to do that, we don't feel like we're worthy. And yet that's not how it's being perceived.

How do we know when we're going into different cultures?

And I'm not just talking about traveling around the world, it might just be across the street because you might be interacting with people that are born in different cultures that have those cultural values. How do we change that mindset? I mean, how. And how do we even know if that's a mindset at all? How do you figure that out?

Yeah, well, obviously when people are extending, you know, that level of generosity and gifts to you, you know, that sense of gift giving, of honoring is very important.

And the way I describe it, Travis, is that for many cultures, in these cultures, social capital is more important than financial capital, or to kind of translate that, honor is more important than money.

So for them in that situation, you know, that family in Uganda, they are more than willing and more than happy to spend their limited resources because it communicates honor to you. And that very act brings honor and brings status and brings a positive public reputation to them.

And for many people of the world, honor is kind of the, the essential feature of what it means to be human, right? And so if they have honor, they have connections, then they have, you know, they have that essential quality of being human.

And so in America, you know, we often view as rights, you know, we got my individual rights, and if you take away my rights, then you're striking at the core of who I am. But for most of the world, honor is that core element that really defines people.

Okay, then knowing that, give us a definition, just a quick definition of what honor is then.

Honor is a positive public reputation that allows people to have relationships.

That's a good short definition. You've done this before because I know this is your been your heartbeat.

I mean, you've even created tests to, for people to help determine what their world that they minister in. Correct. Like, like it's not just honor shame. Other cultures have different, as you mentioned, your operating system.

What are some of the other operating systems that different cultures have besides honor Shame?

Yeah, the, the way people often frame it is there's three cultural operating systems.

There's the shame based culture, guilt based on culture, which is mostly west, and then fear based culture, which is often the global south or more animistic cultures. So guilt, shame and fear cultures.

And so I developed something called the culture test and people can go to the website TheCulture Test.com and you answer 25 questions about your culture or a given culture, and then you get the results, you know, instantly. It's a free test for people to take. And it's just to introduce concept to people that cultures operate differently.

Every culture is going to answer those questions differently. You know, when does a wedding start? Or what's the definition of family? Stuff like that.

And to recognize that, you know, our answer, how we operate isn't how everyone else operates.

And so I'm just trying to get that in people's minds because often there's this assumption that my way is normal and therefore my way is right and moral and any deviation or any other way of doing things culturally, that must be sinful, that must be changed.

And if, especially if there's Christians who operate in those, you know, different cultures, well, then they need to start learning how to act like me. They need to learn how to be independent. They need to learn how to be efficient if they want to be spiritual.

But I'm trying to undercut that and say, you know what?

I think this whole idea of hospitality, just to take one example, I think there is a sense of morality and piety that's very biblical about some of these concepts that the global church can really benefit.

So going back for a moment because you mentioned, and this is the second time you've mentioned it, you're talking about independence. And I think it was independence, but I really caught efficiency. These are western cultural values that not the rest of the world shares.

And I know that many in the west would say, well, they need to because this is how, you know, I am being a good steward of what God has given me. How do you change that mindset and prevent that from becoming an idol in itself?

Because I do find many ministries, many pastors, they really do imbibe this cultural value. But I think it is oftentimes it can become an idol and it can become actually antithetical to the gospel.

Because in thinking you're being a good steward, you've actually prized this over relationships. I mean, would you agree with that? Would you disagree with that?

And how do we then, if you do agree with that, how do we go about helping tweak that mindset a little bit? Because it's not bad. Efficiency is a good thing. Stewardship's a good thing. But it can cross that bridge where it actually becomes an idol.

And we're so busy about doing, doing, doing, that we're not about being and simply building relationships.

Yeah, for sure. Yeah. I think that obviously we're called to be stewards of the resources that we have.

But isn't it interesting how we often view resources as primarily financial resources? You know, our money, our stuff, maybe it includes our time. Well, what about our relationships?

Aren't those gifts from God that God has given us to steward as well?

And so I think we're called to be generous not, you know, throughout scripture, far more than we are called to be, you know, frugal or efficient or, you know, responsible in that sense. So, I mean, I think in this way, being generous with resources is being responsible to the relationships that God has entrusted to us.

And, you know, it's interesting, as you mentioned that, and I know we're going to wrap up here in a second, but you mentioned how we view finances and time.

I mean, we even use financial terms to discuss time, invest time, spend time not worth your time, because time becomes a valuable resource, the more things that could compete for it. So the more opportunity for competition, the more valuable time becomes.

And it's really changing, though, our mindset to look at relationships as stewardship as well, and not necessarily through a financial lens, but through.

I mean, there is an idea of that, I guess, of investing and spending and being with someone to show love, because you can give love through a variety of means.

And I remember my wife saying to me once, we got into a discussion or disagreement years ago about something I was doing, and she said, I need you to show me love by your calendar. And that just meant I need that time from you.

And I think we need to be able to start doing that if we're going to make a difference with people in the world and to show the reality of the gospel in the midst of our culture today that we are Christians. We do so by our love. And.

And our love is expressed often in the west or in any culture, by our time and our willingness to sit down and have a conversation. Well, Jason, I've really enjoyed this conversation. You really geeked me out, and I want to go more, to learn more.

But you referred to the culture test. What are other resources that you have online that people can check out? I know you've got that. And what are some of the other you?

Because that's not the only one. What are other resources that you have online?

Yeah, the best is my website, honorsham.com so it's the American spelling H O n o r shame.com and that's just a free website that has all the resources. I blog there regularly, so it has all past blogs, articles, recommendations, lots of videos.

And so even if you're teaching on this topic of honor and shame to other people, there's different videos, training videos, especially for people to access and to use freely. So you can go there and then from there branch out to resources that you would find most helpful.

And how could they reach out to you? Is there a way or is it just through the website? There's a. Because you'll be checking that frequently. Is there a way to contact you in that regard?

Yeah, for sure. Through the website. Infoonorshame.com is the best way to get connected with.

Well, awesome. Well, that's all we have for today, everybody. I want to thank you, Jason, for coming on the show.

I've really enjoyed this conversation, and I hope to have you back. Does that sound good?

Yeah, that's great. Thanks, Travis.

All right. Bye. Bye. And that was today's deep conversation.

Jason has so much information that he has accumulated over the years to help equip people so that they might saturate their worlds with the good news of Jesus Christ. Find out more@honorshame.com order his book the 3D Gospel or Ministering and Honor Shame Cultures.

It will be tremendously insightful and will help you so that you can engage with conversations or engage in conversations with your family, friends, co workers, classmates, or neighbors. You'll be glad that you purchased his book. It's a quick read, but it's tremendously insightful.

And today's episode was brought to you by Kathy Brothers of Keller Williams Innovate. If you're looking to buy or sell a home in the Chicagoland area, then Kathy is the person that you need to call.

She comes with years of experience and loves people. She's trustworthy and cares about her clients.

And I have said this so many times, I am one of them and I can testify just how good she is at what she does. She's my agent. She met with us and learned what we were looking for and determined what was right for us.

And she didn't only help us purchase a home, but has regularly checked in to see how we are doing. She's attentive to your needs and your style and comes alongside you to help you discover and find what is best for you.

And that is going to come up again February 19th through the 21st, and we're going to be discussing thriving in Babylon. We've had a lot of changes in our world over the past 50 years, and for many of us who live in the west, we've had a certain way.

We have gone about making disciples and going about our Christian life.

But our culture has shifted and therefore we need to adopt new ministry methods and how we go about conversations, how we go about living our Christian life and how we serve and glorify Christ in a way that is honoring to him. And that's going to be a men's retreat. And again, that's taking place at Phantom Ranch Bible camp in Mukwonago, Wisconsin.

You can sign up on Phantom Ranch's website, phantomranch.org events I want to thank you for listening in to our show today. If this episode has helped you saturate your world, then hit that subscribe button.

Leave us a review, interact with us on our social media pages and share this episode with other people. People, water your faith. Water your world. This is Travis Michael Fleming signing off from Apollo's Watered. Stay watered, everybody.