#51 | Ministering in Hollywood, Pt. 2 | Jeremy Treat

It's watering time, everybody.

It is time for Apollo's Watered, a podcast to saturate your faith with the things of God so that you might saturate your world with the good news of Jesus Christ. My name is Travis Michael Fleming and I am your host. And today we, we're having one of our deep conversations.

A deep conversation, Actually, it's the second part of a two part conversation that I had with Jeremy Treat. And if you haven't heard the first part of the conversation yet, I would recommend you go back and listen to that.

But this is the second part of our conversation and it was a fascinating conversation for me because we really got into what it's like to minister in Hollywood today. And it's not what you think. In fact, God is doing some pretty phenomenal things.

We talk about the kingdom of God, what it is, what it's not, and we also talk about how we can redeem vocation and beauty for the glory of God. Happy listening.

And you mentioned being at the front lines interacting with someone who's got a Buddhist background. And it seems that California is very different in that regard.

I know you wrote an article some time ago where you kind of compared the east coast and the west coast of America, where in the east coast it's not as religious. You're much more likely to find atheists or agnostics.

But you go to California and it's extremely religious where you have different places of worship all over the place. How do you interact in that world? Because from my perspective, it seems like that's a lot closer to the world of the New Testament.

Yeah, I mean, honestly, I think it's harder in a lot of ways, but there's huge advantages to it because people are much more open to spirituality here. If you go to a place like New York or Boston or London, people would often consider themselves secular. And they don't.

They look down on spirituality in general.

Here people are praying to crystals and mixing their kind of Buddhist friends faith with their Jewish friends upbringing and piecing all that together. And just to kind of contextualize it, because this isn't. I'm not just talking about this in theory.

I mean, I'm sitting in our office right now and a block directly to the east of me is Scientology. And not just like a little Scientology building, a massive blue building. You might see it in some of the documentaries.

I mean, it used to be a hospital. They probably have thousands of people in there. It's a block to the east of us, a block to the north of US is the church of self realization.

On the south side of our street, there is a psychic tarot card reader. And. And if you just go a little bit down to the west on the street, there's a massive Eastern Orthodox church.

So we're surrounded by not just the world religions, but also all kinds of cultic beliefs and communities and all kinds of stuff like that. So that's shaped the way that we do ministry a ton.

When I'm talking to someone, my assumption when I first moved here, my assumption would be with someone, they either grew up in the church or they grew up, like, secular. Like, you either have a Christian background or like, you're not into religion. And I would kind of feel that out.

And now I'm looking for what type of spirituality have they drawn from and merged together in their lives? And you just see it all over. And honestly, I used to think that the more extreme stuff was just the exception to the rule.

But people are so hungry spiritually that they get duped into all kinds of really strange and scary deceptions. And also another part of that is the more, I think, the more diverse the city that you live in, the more you experience that. So we have.

There's a lot of people in LA from Latin America. America. And so there's a lot of syncretism with Catholicism and all kinds of other, you know, whether it's witchcraft or different beliefs.

So that is something that we're learning is a huge part of discipleship for us, is to be able to say, how do we identify some of that? And then how do we disciple people knowing that you can't. You don't just have a clean slate. Like, if somebody comes to Christ, they get a new heart.

But the patterns in their lives, their connections with their families, the things that have shaped them, those things still have a powerful effect on them to this day and moving forward. And so, you know, we don't have great answers to that. We're still very much figuring it out, but acknowledging it is the first step.

And that's been really clear.

As you were describing everything with the city.

And I could just picture these things in my head, but yet just seeing Christ come around that and Christ work through what you're doing and transforming hearts and minds. And I was reminded of the quote by CT Studd, the, you know, kind of the pioneer missionary who once said that he was.

Some people want to live within the sound of the chapel bell. I want to run a mission by the mouth of hell. Yeah, yeah, Something along that line.

I'm paraphrasing But I think of when people are ministering around the world, there's so many different concepts. I mean, we know people that are in India. I know you actually reference people in Kenya and a slum that are there.

And, and both of us have traveled around and we've seen the incarnations of churches in different ways. And every place has its own set of challenges that they have to deal with and. And so do you in la.

It's just different than what other people that are around the world might have to deal with, but it has its own set of challenges. What then do you think are the biggest set of challenges that you guys have to deal with?

I mean, you've named some of them, but can you really try to pinpoint that?

Yeah, for sure. And by the way, before I answer that question, sorry, this is a sidetrack, but it just came to me. Maximus the Confessor.

That's who had his tongue cut out and his hand cut off. Okay, I love the Confessor Chrysostom. That's where I got confused. But yeah, Maximus the Confessor.

The challenges for ministry here in la, I mean, the biggest challenge is the devil, the flesh and the world for sure.

The three headed dragon. The three headed dragon, yeah.

I never want to overlook that. And you know, one thing I say to people is that sin is sin and brokenness is brokenness.

And sometimes those can be a little bit more like extreme or flamboyant here.

But it's still just like if you're pastoring in Chicago or in Los Angeles or in a small town in Iowa, like we all have the same struggle, but it plays out contextually in different ways. You know, the hardest thing I think, Travis, for me that has practically shaped ministry here is the transience of the city.

And that's something that's true of any big city is just the people coming and going. But it just, it really impacts the nature of your ministry.

I mean, we, I think we probably, I bet about 75% of the people in our church are kind of, you know, cycle in, cycle out in like a three year average.

Is that because people are just going to other jobs or do they really getting eaten up?

I mean, I know there's a variety of things and there's a spectrum, but I know some that come out to la and I have an interview, a deep conversation that we had previously of a young woman who was in my church because I pastored in Chicago for six years, years, and she had grown up in the church. She decided at 18 she'd already become kind of a Tumblr star.

She goes out to la, becomes an Instagram star, racks up, you know, thousands of viewers, moves in with a girl who's got millions and she's doing the whole LA lifestyle where she just came to the end of herself and she's just like, this is not what I want, and ended up deciding to come back. And that was just after her friend was coming out and asked her what her opinion was of homosexuality.

And she said, well, you know, I think it's wrong. And the girl really came after her and said, you know, I mean, it's just a thing, a reality you have to deal with wherever you are, wherever you are.

And like you said, we're all broken in different ways. I like to call that we all have a dent of disobedience, a disposition.

Every single one of us has original sin that manifests itself in different ways without exception. But how do you. I mean, why do you feel like that? Transience is there?

Yeah, I mean, there's. There's different reasons for it. I mean, LA is the city of dreams, right? And so people come here because they have a dream.

And what happens is they come here and then they quickly realize how hard this city is.

And so LA is filled with people who are jaded and disillusioned because they came here with a dream, because they've been told by whoever that they've got lots of talent. And oftentimes, if they've grown up in a church context, they'll even express it in spiritual language of, I've been called to this.

And usually what they mean is, God has called me to be famous, Right? Which is funny, because I don't think God calls anyone to be famous.

God might call you to do something great, but fame could be a side effect of that. Whether that's a good thing or a bad thing is up for question. But there's a lot of jaded people because you come here and it's hard.

And even if you talk to, even the people you talk to, who they make it in, acting or music or tech, any of that, they've gone through rejection over and over and over and over again. I mean, that's just the industry. You're just. You're. You're trying out for things and you're getting told no consistently.

So you get a lot of people who are jaded. They come, they have big dreams, they end up sleeping on couches.

They can do it for a while, and after a few years, they just can't take it anymore and they leave. You also have a lot of people who come and they love the city and they do well.

And then maybe they get married and they have kids and it's just really hard to do family. It's ridiculous how much things cost. LA is dirty. There's a lot of crime. The schools are terrible.

Not things that are conducive for kind of the American dream that we've been sold, at least in terms of families. And so you get some people who will move out to the suburbs or move back to the Midwest or whatever it is. So there's a variety of reasons.

And then also people taking jobs is huge with that. We constantly have people moving from here to New York or from here to Nashville or to Atlanta.

Those industries are just constantly shifting and changing. So there's a whole variety of reasons, but the transience is a major factor.

So you're talking, though, about people coming out the city of dreams and how do you. I don't want to say temper that, but give an alternative biblical worldview. Because like you said, God doesn't call us to be famous.

Now, I love how you put it in your book. Seek first that within the kingdom there is a desire for beauty.

There is a desire for art, there is a desire for music, which is something that all of those things, I think, are neglected.

And I think we have a tendency to villainize that on one hand or totally put it to the hyper side of it, where we want to make fame the ultimate pursuit and realization, which is not true. I mean, it's fleeting, as anyone who's been famous will tell you.

So how do you preach to that?

How do you talk to that? How do you minister to people like that? Or do you dress it at all? Or do you try to present Christ and then let him do that?

No, I mean, I think you have to redeem. You have to redeem ambition. I think we're wired for glory. We're wired to make an impact. And there's a good desire there. Here's where it gets twisted.

This is what sin does. Sin makes us where we want to build our own kingdoms and make a name for ourselves, right?

That's Babel. Genesis 11.

That is Babel, right? It's the very reversal of Eden.

And so what we want to do with people is get them to live for the kingdom of God and to make much of the name of Jesus. Now, that's very different than saying your pursuit of film or acting or writing is ungodly.

And why don't you drop that and Start working for a church. The problem is, that's what a lot of people have heard.

So one of my favorite things as a pastor is to be able to tell people in our church is to say, your parents may not see the good in your vocation, but your pastor does. Right. Like they've all been told, when are you going to get a real job? Right?

If they're an artist and to be able to be able to show them God values art and beauty, and he's creative and we're made in his image and that the church needs artists. We're the storytellers of the world. Like, we should be the best at this, right?

So I love to be able to do that and to be able to redeem that and say, I want you to take all your giftedness, all your ambition, those dreams, and redirect them towards the kingdom into the name of Christ. And so we try and preach that constantly. And then we do a good amount of. I mean, what I would call vocational discipleship for people.

For most people, their vocation is that's where they're spending most of their waking hours. So to not address that in terms of what it means to follow Jesus is.

We're not teaching people how to be followers of Jesus in every aspect of life unless we're doing that. So we have a ministry that we call ICON where we do vocational discipleship. And so we have groups.

We have different groups for musicians and writers and people who are in the health industry. And, I mean, we've been doing this for a few years now.

We're building it out more and more to cover these various fields or vocations so that people can come and say, oh, great, you moved to LA to be a writer. We have a group of writers and they get together from time to time and they talk about how to do that as a follower of Jesus in la.

And they'll share stories and help each other out. And we have all these resources geared towards that. So we try to equip people in those areas.

Okay, so you're talking about discipling all these different groups. And one of the things I want to talk about as you talk about discipleship is you give a really cool foundation or framework.

Framework in your book Seek First. And I like this book because you talk about Kingdom, something that I think is a very neglected doctrine for Christians.

I still think that many Christians are in the mindset of the American revivalism that they've inherited, where it's just. It's the salvation, it's the life Insurance policy. It's just, you know, getting a decision for Jesus. But it's so much more than that.

And that's why Christianity was called the Way in the Book of Acts. And you've really created kind of a, or drawn attention to.

I don't want to say you've created it, but you've drawn attention to something that the Bible really talks about a lot that we under emphasize, I think, as evangelicals and understanding the kingdom of God. What was the impetus behind you writing about the Kingdom of God?

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, I, I'll never forget the time I, I was sitting in a pew listening to a sermon and this preacher said, what's the number one thing that Jesus talked about? And when he said that, I, I kind of like, I kind of had an arrogant response like, oh, of course. Like I've been around the church for a while.

I know this. Like, you know, he's going to talk about the cross, or he's going to talk about heaven, or he's going to talk about God's love.

Like those are the things that we always talk about. And he asked the question again, what's the number one thing that Jesus talked about? And then he said the kingdom of God.

And when he said that, it was like a slap in the face to me because that it wasn't even on my radar. And I remember just feeling like, of course I went through my justification, like trying to justify my. Is he right?

Like, no, maybe that's just his opinion. Right. But then as it sank in, I felt this deep conviction of how can that be the number one thing that Jesus talked about?

And yet it's not even on my radar. Like, it doesn't shape the way I view God. It doesn't shape the way I think of what it means to be a Christian.

And so that really set me on this journey to understand the kingdom of God. If Jesus talked about this so much and that preacher was right, it's very clearly the number one thing that Jesus talked about.

Not only what he talked about, but what he demonstrated in his life is if that's so important, then what does it mean?

So, yeah, it just set me on this journey of studying the Scriptures, trying to learn from theologians to be able to have the right balance even to my understanding of the faith and then have a clear understanding of what the kingdom of God is.

One of the things I really had, really enjoyed about your book, it's not just the kingdom of God from an academic perspective, but you actually tried to draw in the global church And I was actually laughing as I was reading through the book because I'm like. Because you use qualifiers. I do the same thing when I preach, when I say Brazilian theologian or Ecuadorian.

Because I want people to understand that the kingdom of God is bigger than us. It's bigger than our own little blinders have made it to be, and that there are other people around the world that help us understand this.

Was that the reason why? I mean, were they just great quotes? Because you have Ecuadorian, you have Sri Lankan, you have Indian, you have Nigerian, you have Croatian.

I was going through. Going, okay, okay, okay. Wow. This guy's really got a global emphasis in going about this. What was your reason for that?

Was it really just to draw on the global church to help the global church see the kingdom of God, or are they just great quotes you Googled?

No, there's a lot of intentionality behind it. And, I mean, I'm actually just really grateful for you picking up on that, noticing that, because I'm very intentional about that.

The kingdom is global.

And I mean, you think of Revelation 5, Revelation 7, every tribe and tongue and people and nation, and not only is that the future, but we experience that now. And I think one of the joys of being in a city like Los Angeles is, I mean, there's over 200 languages spoken in this city alone.

And so to be able to experience that unity and diversity of followers of Jesus who come from all these different cultural backgrounds is beautiful. And I want to help the church embrace its global identity and its multicultural identity more and more. And so I did that in the book.

I do that in my preaching. I'm a white guy, so the people in my church, they get to hear a lot of white guy.

And so when I quote other people or reference other theologians or leaders or thinkers, I try to be really intentional about building diversity into that. And on a book about the kingdom of God, I felt like that was only fitting for people to get a global. The global feel of that.

But you didn't just do that. That's where I go back to the. You brought in art, you brought in work. It was impressive how you really put those. Those threads together.

And I was reading this, and I was like, he's hitting everything that I think so many evangelicals are missing today, especially in America. Globally, it's a different story. In many ways, it's survival. And global evangelicalism is so much bigger than white American evangelicalism.

Yeah.

I mean, we're just a small percentage of that. But your concept of the kingdom is that such an influence, even in how you go about ministry today.

I mean, your book was written how many a couple years ago. Is it still the same impetus and framework that you're using?

Yeah, it massively shapes my ministry. And I think that just like you were saying, the kingdom of God, it's an incredibly profound idea, but it's also really practical.

And the way that it plays out practically is that in teaching people to follow Jesus, when you're thinking through the lens of the kingdom, you can't just end up in this privatized faith that says, I believe certain things, and I kind of. I have a little devotional time with God, but that doesn't actually shape anything else in my life.

And that's the danger, I think, for a lot of Christians in America is that we compartmentalize and we. We say Jesus is Lord. And what we mean of what we mean by that is, Jesus is Lord of my spiritual life.

And then when we think of money and sexuality and identity and work and emotions and hobbies, we're kind of saying that you can't touch all of that.

And so the kingdom is this idea of God's reign over all of life and all of creation and being able to say, okay, if Christ is king and reigns over all, then that has to shape my understanding of relationships. It has to shape my understanding of work and beauty and. And art and all of those different aspects of life.

So I think that's one of the most powerful things, but one of the most practical as well.

And I love that. I also liked your definition because it was pretty short. When you talk about the kingdom of God as God's reign through God's people over God's place.

Now, understanding God's place, though, that's the part where I'm sitting there going, you're referring to the church, and it's. I mean, are you not.

Yeah.

I mean, I think the place might be the trickiest part on this, because when you look at this in the big picture, the ultimate goal of the kingdom of God, as you read through Scripture, is the renewal of all creation. And so when we talk about place, I mean literally physical, material, earth, the renewal of all of that. Now, how does that play out today?

Well, that's a harder question to ask because it doesn't. It's not as simple as saying the church building. Right.

But I do think evangelicals, as an example, have overreacted to saying things like, well, the church is not the building. Right. So you need to say that because the church is the people it's the redeemed people of God. But to recognize something, such a sacred space.

You know, one of the ways that George Ladd puts this, I believe, is he's a theologian who talked a lot about the kingdom of God is for God to reign, he must reign somewhere. And so there's a realm. So we talk about this with sacred space.

Like, we're in East Hollywood, our church building, in the middle of all this stuff, and we're saying, this space is dedicated to the purposes of God. It is set apart. And when you come in this space, it doesn't matter whether you're worth a million dollars or worth zero.

When you come into this space, you get treated with respect and dignity because you're made in God's image. So even that idea of place, I think, is really important now and then, obviously, just has massive implications as we look forward.

Especially, as you said, the new heavens and the new earth, renewal of all things. That's the part where I was wondering about when you mentioned place, because that's tricky.

I know that McKnight had written a book around the similar time that you had, talking about how the church is where that's already is being seen. But how far do you go? Because in many ways, it's the realm and reign aspect of things.

And what does it mean in that place, and what does that mean for our ecclesiology, if that's the case, being a church, how does the reign of God displayed in a church? Now, let me ask you this. You're at a church. You said you want to affirm the dignity of all people that are made in the image of God.

And this is where it gets really tricky. How do you then preach sin in the midst of this and in the midst of your culture? Because many have neglected that.

But as you've written pretty eloquently, the cross is where sin was dealt with. So how do you go about preaching that and being this group of people that are performing the gospel? Because I got a little bit of that in your book.

And I'm like, well, that's a Van Hooser. Because I know that's big for Kevin. But how do you go about preaching in that way? Because I know when I was at seminary, I had Dr.

David Wells say, do we continue to preach sin when our culture has no definition of it? And one young woman raised her hand and she goes, we don't. And I raised my hand and I went, if you don't preach sin, then you don't have a Savior.

How do you Go about that.

And how do you go about that in la?

Yeah. So the thing I would say first is, and I preach sin, we talk about sin. But you do have to start with creation for people to rightly understand sin.

I think if you start with sin, you'll have an us versus them combative mentality. But if you start with creation and what you're made for, and even then the dignity.

So I've mentioned the image of God and dignity several times already. This is really important for us, even when we're working with those who are unhoused or immigrants, whatever it is.

One of the things that we say is that because we believe people are made in the image of God, we see their dignity before we see their needs. So it's not primarily there's a needy person who I get to go help. No, there's an image bearer of God.

I see their dignity and that is what compels me to help them more than just saying they have needs and I have solutions. Right. So I want to say that first that we start with creation, but then we have to talk about sin.

And if you don't talk about sin, then the gospel will be transformed into a self help manual with Jesus kind of mixed in there somewhere.

If we're not, if we're saying you're basically okay, but Jesus is amazing and he can do all these things in your life, then what that ends up being is Jesus exists to help you realize your potential and you need Jesus to come alongside and help you accomplish your dreams. And that's clearly not the message of Scripture. So we talk about sin. I talk about sin head on. I talk about the wrath of God head on.

But we do so in such a way that says God's like a doctor who gives a diagnosis, right?

So when I say to someone, your greatest problem in your life is your own sin, then I want to be able to say to them, that might sound harsh, maybe it might even feel cruel. But to say, what would you think of a doctor who didn't tell someone about their condition because he didn't want to be very direct with them. Right.

God diagnoses our sin in order to point us towards the remedy. So we talk about sin, but we do so as very much as a setup for the good news. I mean, I don't think the good news.

The good news is not that you're a sinner, but I don't think you can really proclaim the good news without acknowledging sin. So we talk about sin, but we do so to point to Christ as Savior.

And I think that when you do that, people see their need for the gospel and there's not so much of a temptation to say, oh, great, I'd like to add Jesus on to my otherwise good life. I need to be a little bit more well rounded in my spirituality. If we're not clear on sin, it can lead to that place.

Wow, that is really cool. Now, are you working on any other books right now?

Yeah, I'm working on a book on the Atonement. There's a series that Crossway is doing short studies in systematic theology.

And Atonement was really what I studied for my PhD and then my dissertation was on the Kingdom and the Cross. So then I wrote Seek first, which is a book on the kingdom that's really directed towards the church.

And then this next book is a book really on the Cross that's more at a lay level in that vein. So I'm really excited about that. I mean, you talk about sin and the gospel. I mean, atonement is at the heart of all of that.

And I think that it's often overlooked and yet so crucial to the faith today. So I'm working on that book right now. And then I've got. Got another kind of project that's a bigger project that's Atonement and Global Theology.

So, you know, getting back into the importance of global theology, one of the things I've learned in this is that we understand the fullness of Christ's work for us more and more as we see it from different angles of different cultural backgrounds.

So doing a project with that, of trying to lay some foundation, but also interact with some global theologians who can speak into that and shed more light on the cross.

That is awesome. And when do you hope to have that done by?

Well, that one is. I think that's like a five to ten year project. My Atonement book that I'm doing, I'm supposed to have it done by July. I'll leave it at that.

We have this thing called the Pandemic in the last year. It's kind of slowed down my plan.

Sometimes it's for other people, it's sped them up because they have more time to do stuff. But there's others that are doing a whole lot more than they ever could imagine.

Yeah, I've had to lead through crisis after crisis after crisis the last year, so I haven't had much spare time.

Yeah, most pastors I know are tired and they need a vacation.

Yeah.

So how can people find out more about you? Learn what you're doing and just contact you in some way.

Yeah, I mean, I guess social media is probably the easiest way. I mean, I'm on Twitter and Instagram and I mean just our website.

If you wanted to listen to my sermons, I mean, most of what I really care about and teach on and write on, it shines through in my sermons probably more than anywhere. So if you, you know, our church website is realityla.com we got got, you know, eight years worth of my sermons on there.

That's awesome. Well, I want to thank you so much for coming on the show. I've really enjoyed this conversation and I'm amazed that I found a Clippers fan.

That was before, before Ballmer took over. But really it's a delight to hear what God is doing there.

It's an encouragement to my heart, my soul, and I hope that anyone out there listening today might draw encouragement as well. Feel free to go online and listen to his sermon, get his books. I would highly recommend them. They're great books to read.

They will be great for your soul. But Jeremy, thank you so much for coming on. Apollos Watered.

Thanks Travis. It's been a pleasure, man. I'm grateful for you and for the podcast.

I hope you enjoyed listening to that episode as much as I had having that conversation with Jeremy. He's a pretty amazing guy and it's encouraging to hear what God is doing through him and Reality la.

I would also encourage you to go online and get one of his books. You will be glad that you did. Here's your water bottle for the week. Rediscover what it means to be in the Kingdom of God.

That's it for when you understand that you're going to see your life through an entirely different lens. It magnifies your life in a greater way.

Whenever we talk about the Christian life, one of the most greatest deficiencies is when people look at it as simply soul saved. I had a man innocently ask me when he heard about Apollo's water. How many decisions do you have? You see, it's much more than that.

The Christian life is exactly that. The Christian life, a disciple, is a continual follower of Jesus, seeking to place all of life under the sovereignty of God.

That means having a proper understanding of work and our vocation. It also means understanding beauty. Why did God want us? Or why did God create us in his image? To seek out and admire beauty.

Jeremy talks about that a lot in his book and I would encourage you to get it.

I also want to thank our Wonderful team, Kevin O'Brien Brian, Dana, Eliana Fleming and Rebecca Bedal and to give a shout out to our wonderful sponsor, Kathy Brothers of Keller Williams Innovate. If you're looking to buy or sell a home in the Chicagoland area, then Kathy is the person that you need to contact.

Because Kathy is amazing at what she does. She cares for people and really does try to find what is best for her clients. She comes with years of experience and loves people.

She's trustworthy and does care about her clients. It's not just a client, but it's someone that she seeks to build a relationship with in a greater way.

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There's going to be worship, some merchandise, and a great time to get to know other men who are trying to pursue Christ together and thrive in the midst of this modern day Bible Babylon in which we find ourselves. Well that's it for today everybody. Water your faith, water your world. This is Travis Michael Fleming signing off from Apollo's Watered.

Stay watered everybody.