#114 | Rediscovering The Apostolic Imagination | J.D. Payne

I was thinking about just the need to really see a paradigm shift, if you will, in the way that the church, especially the church in the traditionally Western context, thinks about her global task and really began to think about.

We really need to get back to the way that the first century church understood God, his mission, and their stewardship of what it meant to be Christ followers, to be kingdom citizens in the world in light of the, you know, the second coming.

Time, everybody.

It's time for Apollo's Watered, a podcast to saturate your faith with the things of God so that you might saturate your world with the good news of Jesus Christ. My name is Travis Michael Fleming, and I am your host. And today on our show, we're having another one of our deep conversations.

Does it ever feel like there is something wrong in the church today, especially the church in the west, specifically the United States, that somehow we've lost touch with something?

I mean, how is it that we have all of these buildings and resources, but we seem to have lost the ability to speak to our neighbors who are on the outside of the church? And when we do speak to them, they roll their eyes and go along their way?

I mean, we know that the church is exploding in other parts of the world, but here we see empty churches, for crying out loud. There are for sale signs out front.

There's even an Instagram account that features cheap old houses for renovation that regularly includes old churches that could be turned into homes. What gives? What if it's an issue of mindset, definitions and priorities? What if we've got it wrong in our minds on what we're supposed to be doing?

You know, that's what our guest today, J.D. payne, argues. J.D. is a professor at Samford University and is the author of Apostolic Rediscovering a Biblical Vision for the Church's Mission Today.

There's no question that this is a deep conversation.

There are terms that you may not be familiar with, but I really wanted to talk to him because I believe that he's talking about something that is near and dear to our heartbeat. At Apollo's Watered, we want our neighbors, whether they're across the street or around the world, to encounter Jesus.

And when we're no longer doing that, maybe it's time to reset our thinking. And that's what we're going to be talking about today on Apollo's Watered. Happy listening, JD Payne. Welcome to Apollo's Watered.

Hey, Travis, thanks so much for having me. Appreciate it, brother.

All right, are you ready for the Fast 5?

Probably not, because Things like this get me into trouble.

I have.

I've been to this rodeo before, and it's scary.

Okay, now, you were born in what state?

Kentucky.

Okay, so UK or Louisville?

Uk.

Why?

I was a graduate from uk. Met my wife at uk.

Man. Okay, country.

I also also went to graduate school at. At Louisville, but that's kind of another story. I did additional graduate studies there, but I was an undergrad at University of Kentucky.

So do you root for UK when they play each other?

When UK and UofL play one another? Yeah, I'll lean toward UK.

Okay, country you've always wanted to visit.

And why it would be Italy. Not only because of the history and heritage there, but, you know, the culinary aspects of the place. Plus, I am a huge espresso aficionado.

Oh. Hmm. That's fun. All right, well, talking about food, the strangest food you have ever eaten is.

That would have probably been a cod tongue in Newfoundland, Canada. The tongue of a cod.

It's a tongue of a fish.

That's right.

A tongue of a fish.

It's not too bad. It's just, you know, something that I usually do not have every day here in Birmingham.

Yeah, I wouldn't think so. Oh, but what led to that? Is it a delicacy or is it just normal? Like, what?

You know, the history of cod in Newfoundland, Canada, is a long history with going back, you know, many, many, many years. And so I'm assuming that somewhere over the years they found out ways to prepare it and so. Not bad. I recommend it.

You really do. How do you. How was it cooked?

It was fried, of course. At least that was the way that I had it.

And you think it was done fried?

Again, please, before you bring it back.

Number four. If your life were a movie, who would star as you and why?

Oh, man. Who would star as me and why if my life were a movie? You've got me on that one.

I mean, I could go David Hasselhoff because I was a big Knight Rider fan in the 80s, which was a.

Prophetic movie, by the way. Like Google Maps and talking on his watch. That's like the most prophetic TV show ever.

You don't know how much I wanted a car that would talk to me.

What kid didn't in the 80s?

It would even be that, you know. You know, Richard Dean Anderson was The star of MacGyver.

Oh, yeah.

And so, you know, I don't know.

I could see that. I could. I could totally see the Hoff. I don't know about, but. Yeah, but you're a Knight Rider fan.

But. But I did. I did have a perm at one time, and so my hair was about as curly.

Didn't we all get perms at one time? Just one time.

That's when I played lead guitar in a hard rock band.

Really? What was the name of the band?

That will not be shared. Because. Because I may cause some people to stumble, and I don't want them to.

Oh.

Should I tell you? Should I tell you? I'm going to tell you the name of the band. But here's the thing.

When I tell you the name of the band, someone's going to think that that was satanic, anti.

Okay.

Christ. But it's not.

Okay.

So we were a total cover band. So we wanted to. To. To communicate that we were just as good as the original artists. So we saw ourselves as an. As a graven image of those artists.

So we called ourselves Graven Image. But it was not anti. Old Testament.

It wasn't supposed to be anything.

It was not supposed to be. But, you know, in retrospect, make a lot of really foolish decisions in your life, especially when you're not living for the Lord, right?

Yes. Oh, no, there's so many.

So that. That was it. And by the way, I think this is the first time on any podcast, during any interview that I have ever shared that piece of information.

So your listeners are going to drop, like, by 50% after the show airs. So I hope you're ready for that.

Oh, graven image. I had a. I had a. I was at a youth camp one time, and these guys were playing in a band, and they said, we're named after our.

My favorite book of the Bible. And everybody was quiet. He goes, preface. I was like, oh, my gosh, Come on. He just laughed. It's pretty funny. It was pretty funny, I have to say.

It's not bad.

It's not bad. It's not bad. Okay, here we go. Last question. Number five. If you were a restaurant, what restaurant would you be and why?

All right, so here it is. Olive Garden. Yeah. Why are you laughing? Why does everyone laugh when someone says Olive Garden? Let me say this about the Olive Garden.

The Olive Garden. The Olive Garden is where my wife and I, prior to our marriage, you know, used to go on dates. If.

If we could come up with enough money, you know, a hot date for us back in the day when we were college students was Taco Bell. You know, both eat. We could both eat a Taco Bell for less than $4, which was awesome. Four bean burritos no onions, two waters and you're all right.

But. But when we could get enough money, we'd go to Olive Garden. But here's the thing.

When we got married, we got married in the morning, and we were leaving to go on our honeymoon. But it was. It was lunchtime. We got married at 10 in the morning. And so while after we left the ceremony, where did we go for lunch?

We went to the Olive Garden. And so we had bird seed falling out of our hair in the chair.

Like wedding dress and ducks and everything.

Well, you know, we changed, you know, into our getaway clothes, but my wife still had all of her makeup on. And I kid you not, we left birdseed all in the chair and all over the floor. But anyhow, there you go. It has a very special place in my heart.

Olive Garden.

Oh, I could see that, though, as the special place in your heart. I mean, that's a really good story. I can really relate to that.

Especially the Taco Bell stuff, because we did the exact same thing when we were dating.

That's exactly right. Exactly right.

Well, let's. Let's get to know you for a bit here.

Those weren't too bad. I thought that that fast five kind of scared me there for a second. I still may get emails after this air.

Oh, they'll say, I never knew. I have a total new respect for you. That's what it's gonna say.

All of my book sales will then plummet after this.

Oh, they're gonna go whale.

Instead of selling five books this year, I will sell two to my aunt and uncle. But that's okay. That's what I expect.

Okay, so wait, wait. What does JD Stand for? Whenever I meet, I have a cousin named J.D. and every time I'd ask his mother, I'd say, it doesn't stand for anything.

We just called him. That's literally his name. And so what is it? Does it stand for something?

Of course it stands for something. Those are my initials.

What? I didn't know. Like I told you, my cousin is J.D. but it's just J.D. it no, like, it doesn't stand for anything. They said we just like the initials J.D.

so what does J.D. stand for?

All right, so this is often a mystery, but it's starting to spread more online, and people can find this out, even though I've. I've tried to hide it for several years just because I like to keep the kind of the. The urban mystery going. Right? Yeah. Yeah, that's right.

So my middle name is David. Most people can Guess that when they guess the D. But. But most people are unable to guess the J. So the J stands for Jervis. Jarvis, not Jarvis.

Jervis, J, E, R, V, I, S. My father.

Is it a family name?

It is. My father's name was Jervis, and so my mother named J named me after my father.

My dad did not have a middle name, but When I was 3, my mom just started calling me J.D. and it stuck. And so I've had that. I've gone by my initials all of my life for the most part.

Does anyone. Do you have to, like, sign something? Like when you get on an airplane and it says Jervis on it? Do, do, do people like, that's not. You have that.

All of my legal documents, you know, it's got my full name on it. So I always, you know, if I'm signing something, I always have to look up there and see, you know, how did they. How did they write it out?

How they spell it out?

So I like that name, though. Jervis. What's it mean?

I have no idea. It probably means loser or something. I don't know, man.

You need to make a cool meaning. Just say, hey, it really is.

Here's the thing. If I was a solo musician, oh, you'd be my name. I would just go by jerk.

Oh, my goodness. Why don't you just do that with your books? Just put Jervis. Not a last name, not initials, just Jervis.

I should, I should, but I'm too deep into this thing, man.

Oh, yeah, that's true.

So, yeah, yeah. My grand. So backstory on the name. So my grandmother asked her one time because I had. My family's got some really bizarre names.

I grew up in southeastern Kentucky, and my dad was raised in a holler. Not a hollow, a holler. And I asked my grandmother, I said, so where did you come up with this name for dad?

And she said, well, when I was pregnant with your father, I was staying at one of my friend's house, and instead of wallpaper, she had newspapers all over her walls. Again, you have to think of the culture, the context and the poverty and things of that nature.

And so she said, I was reading this article about a Dr. Jervis, and so I decided, if this is a boy, I'm going to name him Jervis. That's all that I know.

You should look that up. I mean, you could probably figure that out. Your dad was born in what year? You could try to trace that back. That area. Interesting.

Yeah, that'd be interesting. I like that name. Jervis. That's a good name. All right, well, then let's talk about your book, Apostolic Imagination. I want to talk about that.

Recovering a biblical vision for the church's mission today. What precipitated this book? What brought this about?

Because I listened to your podcast when you're talking about it, Strike the Match, and you're talking about the book, and you said this is something that's been in your mind for many years and you just wrote it came out this year. Tell us about how this book, Apostolic Imagination, came to be.

Yes, I mean, it's, I would say it's probably been the longest of all of my books. It's been the longest in its, you know, formation and development in writing.

Years ago, I, you know, I was thinking about just the need to really see a paradigm shift, if you will, in the way that the church, especially the church in the traditionally Western context thinks about her global task and really began to think about, you know, we really need to get back to the way that the first century church, you know, understood God, his mission, and their, their stewardship of what it meant to be Christ followers, to be kingdom citizens in the world in light of the, you know, the second coming. And I began to think about this concept of, you know, their imagination was just really different than the way we approach things today.

And this is not about reproducing first century culture, if you will, not saying bring first century culture in the 21st century, but the way they thought, the way they view things around them was very much what I saw sort of as an apostolic approach. And so I just kind of let that idea just sit out there as I began to work on some other things and pray about some other matters.

And, you know, fast forward over time, I started doing some research and I found out that there were other people throughout the world that were talking about this concept of an apostolic imagination. Writing about this. First person I came across was Alan Hirsch. And he had written quite a bit about this.

Been speaking on this for some time, even, I believe, one or two of his books. It's in the subtitle, you know, Apostolic Imagination. And so, so that's really the backstory for me.

This is really about a paradigm shift in the way that the church is engaging in the global task that we've received.

So let's define these terms because I shared this with a guy and I said, I'm reading this book, Apostolic Imagination.

And he kind of his head turned because automatically when he hears the term apostolic, he has certain images that come into his mind, is he still your.

Friend after you told him that you're reading?

He is. He is still my friend. He is still my friend. He had a lot of questions because I, I've been in the field of missiology. I mean, I've studied in it.

I've read a lot in it. Not as well read, obviously, as you are, but I'm a layman when it comes to missiology, if you will.

And I knew a lot of the terms, I knew the discussion. And he was coming at it completely from the background of a person who just is completely unfamiliar with this. He had ideas in his mind.

But define apostolic and imagination. Why you brought these two together?

Well, you know, apostolic, in using it as an adjective, comes from a term. It basically means ones who are sent. Imagination is really about kind of our worldview, our perspective, the way we view the cosmos around us.

So when I look back at the first century and I go back to the Scriptures, you know, I think that during the first century, the apostolic imagination was really a spirit transformed mindset that helped facilitate urgent and widespread gospel proclamation, disciple making, church planting, and leadership development. It really establishes or established a mental framework related to the church's strategy in the world.

And so that's what I'm getting at when I'm talking about an apostolic imagination.

In other words, what was it in that first century mindset that led those believers to engage the world around them in the proclamation of the gospel, in disciple making, planting these churches, raising up leaders, caring for these congregations.

So you're saying then that there's been a. You're calling, the church has shifted away from that basically?

I think so over time.

And you're saying, hey, let's go back to the way of understanding it. Using that. I like, I actually enjoyed the term imagination.

And I understood because I read a little Hirsch, I knew how you were defining that kind of idea of apostolic imagination. It was just really interesting to see how my friend took it.

He was coming at a cold and talking about how to recapture that, that zeal in, as you said, not replicating the culture, but a lot of the practices, the ideas. Right. That conceptual framework. I'm just making sure that I got what you have here.

I want to read this part from your book because I think you draw this out in a pretty, I find, fascinating way. You said, will the church always adjust and conform Christian doctrine and practices to the word of God? This is the challenge.

And I, I agree with you.

The apostolic imagination recognizes that a great deal of latitude is permitted for life and ministry, but continual Evaluation is part of stewardship, the church's heart and mind. This is the part right here that I would emphasize. The church's heart and mind often embrace apostolic doctrine.

I think everybody likes the theory of it, but the ecclesiology, the practice in the church often rejects apostolic practice. What do you really mean by that? 14, page 14.

So really, if you look at the church again in the west, in the traditionally western context, in North America, Western Europe, if you will, Australia, New Zealand, what do you see over centuries? What you see that for the most part, the church's primary imagination right now is what I would refer to as a pastoral imagination.

And that's a great thing. That's very important.

That's, that's healthy and biblical, where the church is well established and the need for crossing cultural gaps to take the gospel from, from believers into the kingdom of darkness when those cultural gaps are very small, where there are all kinds of mature church structures and organization and complex ministries, a pastoral imagination takes, you know, takes precedent.

However, whenever you begin to think about taking the gospel to the unreached, taking the gospel to those that are of a significant cultural leap from where the church presently resides, an apostolic approach needs to take precedent, needs to be at the forefront of what's going on. And so oftentimes, throughout majority world countries, the church in the west has not always, but has, has often used apostolic approaches.

But we don't think about those in our own backyard. We think this is a Christianized context. Look at this. There are churches on every corner, buildings.

That is, there are all these mature church structures. You have all these great Christian podcasts, for example.

You know, you have places where you can go to get your degrees and all kinds of Christian literature and Christian radio stations. So. So we're not talking about reaching unreached people. And I would say that is where we have really fallen short.

And so the ecclesiology, the structure, the way we think about church is primarily through a pastoral set of lenses.

What I refer to there is a pastoral hegemony, if you will, and it rarely allows room for the apostolic work in a geographical context whereby there are those strong, mature church structures.

Why is that? Why do the structures. Is it because they're trying to preserve and support the structure and they don't have any room to imagine that and drift out?

Or is it their people just know how to even connect and cross those cultural gaps?

As you've said, there is no simple answer. We did not get here overnight. And the answer is not a very simple answer. It's a Very complex answer to why that is the case.

Part of it is, I believe we have lost a biblical and theological foundation. I think that's where it all begins when it comes to our Great Commission task. For example, missions is overseas. It's not over here.

Even the very language that we use, missions, missionary, I mean, where does that come from? That's not in the Bible.

I mean, you have to go back to the 16th century to the Jesuits to find that, that the notion of what, what are those people that we're sending out, what are they supposed to be doing? Are they supposed to act like pastors? A lot of people will say, yeah, they're supposed to be pastors.

Is there, is that really what you see in the Scriptures?

So I think that the whole issue of, of where we are to answer the why question is because we, we have focused on practical type things and we have missed the foundational aspects over time. And because of that, there are a lot of issues, there are a lot of challenges in response to that question. Why is it that we are where we are?

And so I think our identities are messed up. I think our definitions are messed up.

I think the things that we think about when it comes to our priorities, of what we're supposed to be doing, they're distorted. The functions of what the church is supposed to be doing in the world, I think that that has become blurred.

The thinking about strategy, about location, where we're supposed to be. I think that we, we've really, we've really lost a lot of focus. It doesn't mean that everything we're doing is bad.

It just means that we're, we're skewed in our focus. We're, we're out of, you know, we're out of alignment with certain things. If the only tool to use a really old, you know, illustration here.

If the only tool in the toolbox that you have is a hammer, then every, every construction site, every job that you need to do, you're going to use your hammer. And so if I need to saw a board, I'm going to use a hammer. If I'm going to put a screw into a wall, I'm going to use a hammer.

Well, that's wonderful if you're needing to nail something, but if you're needing to saw things, you need to make some adjustments. Right now, the only tool, for the most part in the toolbox is the hammer. And now let me make this disclaimer too.

You know, I see in my calling a pastor teacher, I'm not one who considers himself an apostle. I don't consider myself a missionary. I've worked with church planting teams and trained church plan, but I'm not a church planter.

I've spent 19 years in pastoral ministry. But right now, the only tool, figuratively speaking, in the toolbox, for the most part, is the pastor and the structure, too.

Right? Talking about the pastoral.

Yeah. The pastoral approach allows for a particular structure to develop. And that's. There's nothing wrong with that.

That's healthy and biblical or should be healthy.

Well, depending on how that works out. Right. How you. How you play it?

Because I remember at my last church, we were in Aurora, Illinois, and I would drive up and down the main street because it seems like every church I know, eventually, if they start to grow, they get, I don't want to say addicted to their own press, but that becomes their identity. We're growing, things are happening. Be a part of it. And there's an excitement which is a genuine.

That's a genuine thing that is a byproduct of a work of God. And then they want to get a building. And then what happens is that becomes that building becomes the identity.

And then you look at it several generations later and you go, where are all the people? Rarely do you see that hallmark there. And I see it become an albatross.

I've seen these churches that did great works, but it seems like a lot of churches still want to do that. They build the building, they build this, they build their brand, if you will, and they forget the kingdom idea.

It becomes that the church almost replaces this kingdom. And it seems like then, as one Indian man told me, it's one thing to pay for the elephant, it's another thing to feed it.

And I think that's what you're trying to draw attention to is to say, okay, we've made all these structures, but the church in the west, the church is growing everywhere around the world except here. And maybe we need to rediscover because in those contexts, those majority world contexts, and correct me if I'm wrong, are really doing.

Cultivating that apostolic imagination, and we've lost that. Is that what I'm hearing you saying, or am I missing that there?

Yeah, I would say that it's not like this apostolic imagination is not being cultivated from Western churches or Western mission agencies. It is. It's happening. That's out there. And there are places in the majority world where there are churches that I believe are.

They have that and they're cultivating it. But. But the opposite is also true.

A great deal of, you know, 200 years of Protestant missionary history, and even prior to that, in, you know, the Catholic and Orthodox traditions, a great deal of what has been exported from the Western context to majority world context are cultural manifestations of various church expressions. And so we have repeated and replicated and passed on to others things that are not very healthy ecclesiologically.

So just because it's happening in the majority world doesn't mean that everything there is, you know, wonderful and solid and sound.

Right. So let's bring. Can we draw that out? Can you explain that to our listeners?

Because I think you've hit something that's pretty key, but I know some people are like, wait a minute, what are you talking about? I don't understand this. Draw that what you mean, or perhaps give an example of what that looks like.

Sure, yeah. We reproduce what we know, and we know what's been modeled before us.

You know, Paul would often talk about in his writings, he would say, at least on three occasions, he would say, you know, imitate me as I imitate Christ. You became imitators of us in the Lord. He writes in First Thessalonians, chapter one.

What you see as a part of the tradition of the church, the apostolic involvement, is there is this notion of not only passing along right doctrine, orthodoxy, but also orthopraxy, this notion of how do you apply, how do you contextualize the teachings of Christ that have been passed on to you?

And so what we have often done in church history, when I say we, I'm talking about those of us in a predominantly Western context, and specifically with me in the United States, we have often taken things in our cultural traditions, the way that we think about church and ministry and liturgy and preaching styles and worship styles and how we train leaders, how we share the gospel, things that work really well at home, things that the Lord may have used to even bring me to faith and grow me in the faith. And we have wed those so tightly to the biblical teachings that oftentimes we believe that our methods and our cultural expressions are our Bible.

In other words, to separate those expressions, those cultural preferences, is really bad and sinful because you're not passing on what is biblical, when in reality what I'm doing is I'm not being able to distinguish between what is my cultural preference and what is biblical.

And so for centuries, we have taken not only the gospel to the world, but we've also taken a very heavy dose of our cultural expressions to the world, and we've passed those on to Others with an idea that if you express yourself this way in your context, therefore, you are doing it the right way, because this is Bible, this is biblical, this is doctrine.

So let me. Let me try to see. Let me describe that, and you tell me if I'm right here. I want to make sure I am grabbing what you're saying.

I was in India, and I had a Ugandan man that came along with us to do a ministry trip. We were speaking and kind of doing an exploratory trip, getting to know the area.

And it was the first time my friend had ever traveled outside of the United States. And they lost his luggage, and they couldn't find it for two weeks or a week and a half.

So he had to wear what he wore on the plane every day, and he had to wash his clothes and so on and so forth. But he had, like, a. Trousers, slacks, and he had a nice dress shirt. It was buttoned up so he looked fine, but he didn't have a jacket.

And so when we got to India and he got asked to come on the platform, he wouldn't, because in his cultural expression, he was taught that he had to have a jacket that was the right and proper way. Is that kind of the thing we're talking about, those type of cultural things that have been passed on?

Because that's what was taught to him through missionaries and their expression of the faith. But that's not necessarily a biblical thing. Is that kind of thing what we're talking about?

That is an example of it to one degree. I mean, you know, clothing, attire, you know, you know, training, the way we train leaders. I mean, there's. There are a variety of ways.

Variety of expressions out there.

Of course, none of us can be culturally neutral, but we have to be very cautious in what we communicate to other people, as this is biblical and this is just my cultural way of doing things.

Because we all, like you said, we all have our. Our own cultural preferences that we bring with us.

Oh, yeah.

Now, as we're talking about culture, here's another quote that I wanted to read from your book that I found myself underlining, and it was on page 42. You said, the greatest need for evangelism today is intercultural evangelistic labors both across the street and across the world.

We had David Garrison on talking about unreached people groups and gateway cities and. And talk about the people that are in our neighbors. I mean, our neighborhoods right now. And you've even written about this.

The neighbor, the stranger next door.

Stranger next door. Yeah.

Yeah. How do we cross those barriers? And why is that such a need today?

Well, I think part of the how we cross those barriers is, is we just have to be intentional and, and do it. Oftentimes we're not even intentional in sharing the gospel with people that look like us, smell like us, sound like us.

And oftentimes, you know, we don't even seek to prayerfully, you know, engage people with the good news, you know, how much more so am I usually, you know, not being intentional in trying to engage those that are in my neighborhood that don't look like me, smell like me, sound like me, talk like me, walk like me. So I think part of the how is just, just we have to go and just do it and be humble, be a learner, be a friend in connecting with people.

The important aspect of your question is that we presently reside in a world whereby there are unreached peoples that live around us. And it's not just the unreached peoples living somewhere in a remote jungle somewhere. They're living in our community, in our city down the street.

In other words, the cultural gap, to kind of go back to what I was saying a moment ago, the cultural gap between me as a follower of Christ and who I am and my cultural preferences and who they are is a very large gap. Maybe that gap is because of just where we live. Maybe the gap is because of socioeconomic issues. Maybe the gap is because of language differences.

I mean, there are a variety of different things and other, other things even out there as well.

But if believers are not willing to cross those cultural gaps to, to connect with people, to share the love of Christ with people, then, then they're not going to hear the Gospel, they're not going to come to faith, they're not going to become a part of a, they're not going to become fruit bearing disciples in Christ's local expressions of his universal body.

And that that is true whether you're talking about Christians in Indonesia crossing cultural gaps to reach their neighbors that are Muslim, to Christians living in Birmingham, Alabama, crossing those cultural gaps to reach those that are culturally distant from them as well.

We're going to take a quick break and hear a word from our sponsors and we'll be right back. The most important Bible translation is the one you read at Apollos Watered.

We use several different translations when we're studying preaching or teaching. But again and again we keep coming back to the new living translation, the nlt. That's why we are excited to partner together.

We are united in the belief that understanding The Bible changes everything because if you can't understand it, then you won't read it. We want you to know that the God of the Bible to water your faith so that you will water your world. That's why we recommend getting an nlt.

It's the Bible in the language we speak. It's not foreign or complicated, but up close and personal. To save some Money, go to Tyndale.com, use the promo code NLTBIBLES.

It will give you 15% off. There's an NLT for everyone from kids to adults. Devotional Bibles, study Bibles and so much more.

Get one today because understanding the Bible changes everything. And the NLT is the Bible. You can understand one of the other things that you wrote about this.

I love the fact you're talking about being intentional and crossing those gaps. But you mentioned this globalization and migration have also revealed the flaws of such thinking.

The United States is home to the third largest number of unreached people groups in the world. Canada is home to the sixth largest number.

Apostolic Labors are necessary to reach many of these groups in North America, as would be the case in their countries of birth. Throughout the world, the lines are now being blurred between foreign and domestic.

I feel that every day, however, the Church continues to allow geography rather than cultural contexts to define and limit the Great Commission Labors. It's my contention that the cultural context is greater than the geography. How do we change people's minds on that?

Yeah, I mean, I think it goes back to just doing right biblical teaching and helping people to think, what does it mean to take the Gospel to those that are unreached? You know, if you look, for example, you know, in the New Testament, you know, from Jerusalem to Antioch, that's about 300 miles there.

No one crossed any seas, no one crossed any oceans to get there. You could just, you know, head north out of Jerusalem.

And yet some unnamed men in Acts chapter 11, fleeing persecution that broke out after Stephen's martyrdom. They take the Gospel, crossing cultural gaps to the Greek speaking Gentiles.

And so we have to help people think in terms that the Great Commission is not domestic and foreign. It's not North American and international, it's not home and abroad. It never has been. That is, that's a cultural manifestation.

And I think it goes back to a distortion of biblical truth. I think it goes back to a practical app, a practical misapplication of pastoral ministry.

And it's caused us to still, even to this day, think in terms of overseas as where that Great Commission Work happens. However, migration has been happening. Well, migration has been happening since Genesis chapter three, since the exodus from the garden.

But for the most part, you know, the 20th century, in the 21st century, they were called the age of migration because of the waves, the waves of people that are migrating here, there and everywhere, not just to the west, but all over the world because of the shrinking of the world, so to speak, globalization, rapid trends, you know, transportation and instant communication, things of that nature.

And the migration of people, not just refugees, but people who are migrating for a variety of reasons, that has really forced the church to really begin to think about this concept of, well, maybe it's not about overseas.

Maybe, maybe this concept, maybe what we've been calling missions for some time, again, I would say not a biblical term, but maybe this concept, maybe it's not about home and abroad and it, and the whole concept of the diasporas of the nations moving around, that's really been shaking a lot of people in their thinking and their imagination at this point in time. And I think that is a good thing.

Well, this idea of. You even mentioned one of those subjects that haven't been really studied well yet is diaspora. Diaspora missiology, because of that.

But I don't want to get too technical for our folks. It's just that God's moving the world all around us.

But yet you mentioned in the, in the book that you cite, Barrett and Johnson, my friend, my friend Todd and the World Christian Trends piece, they wrote that a lot of our finances, and I know Nick had actually mentioned this when he was on the show, 95% of our finances are spent within kingdom related things here, meaning that the structures that we already have, which leaves only 5% for this group.

Now I don't want to get the term wrong because you've, you've cited it and we're going to get to this in a minute where you talk about the proper terminology. So give me a term rather than missions, that unreached people groups. Is that a better way of describing it? You said not a biblical term for missions.

What term should I give? Or apostolic imagination. Should I use that?

Yeah, well, apostolic imagination, unreached people groups, those are not biblical terms either. That's true.

That's true. The FNA, we'll use that.

I Mean, it has its limitations. I still use that terminology to talk about unreached peoples.

Okay, so if we're talking about the unreached peoples in the, the Ponta, ethnic, the all the nations of the world, how do we get people then to see that?

Because on one level, I feel like you're saying we need to realize that it's not about geography, but it's in the cultural context which we find ourselves.

We have unreached people groups all around us, while at the same time, the difference in trying to use this apostolic imagination to reach the unreached people groups around the world, where only 5% of money is actually going to fund these apostolic teams, it seems like, and maybe this is with me, with my categories I know are insufficient, but the way that I've traditionally thought of it is this idea that we have unreached people groups. But yet I know the unreached people groups in the United States still have the opportunity of access.

They have churches and podcasts and everything else. Yes, but Saudi Arabia or Pakistan or North Korea, they're not going to be there, obviously. So how do you differentiate.

What is the terminology or the proper terms that we need to understand to differentiate that in our minds?

Well, you're exactly right.

And I mentioned this, I think, in the book, and that is by far the greatest needs, the greatest needs for gospel proclamation, the greatest needs for church planting, disciple making, raising up national leaders is out of other contexts, is outside of North America, outside the traditionally Western context. And a lot of it has to do with the issue of access. For me, It's a Romans 15 matter that needs to be factored in as well.

So geography is a part of it, clearly. Yeah, because there are people living in, in difficult to reach places in parts of Asia, parts of Africa.

But it's really a Romans 15 issue, and that is Paul says, I desire to establish a foundation where one has not been established, to not build upon another's foundation in the work that he's doing. That is a practical manifestation of the apostolic imagination, to desire to work where there is no foundation.

And so we do have to acknowledge that there we, we need more attention, more people going, more giving to work in the traditionally non Western countries of the world. Hands down, I'm right there. At the same time, we, we cannot neglect what the Lord has been doing.

If you look In Acts, chapter 17, verses 26 and 27, you know, Luke writes, you know, and he talking about God and Paul's preaching in Athens, and in his sermon, Luke writes, and he God created from one man, every nation of mankind, to dwell upon the face of the earth, having determined the allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place. In other words, God has created everyone.

He is also not only sovereign over their creation, but he's sovereign over where they live and when they live. And then verse 27, there's a very, very important so what? Aspect.

And it goes on to say God has done this so that they might find him, that they might grope for him, that they may come to know Him.

And so there's something missiologically malignant if I'm willing to make great sacrifices to get on a plane to fly 35,000 miles above the Pacific Ocean to reach an unreached people group, while halfway across the Pacific someone from that unreached people group flies past me and lands in the international airport in Birmingham, Alabama, and I'm not willing to walk across the street to share the gospel with Him. Something is problematic there. And so I would say by far greatest needs in other parts of the world.

But we cannot neglect the movement of the nations around us, especially when we have extensive stories of people coming to faith in Western context, going back home and partnering with Western churches to take the gospel to people in their social networks that are unreached and plant churches as well.

So are you saying, and again, forgive me if I get this wrong, because I think it's a both and not an either or, but I want you to answer this. You're saying that we reach the unreached people groups that are near us, but we also to reach the other people on the other side of the world.

But you're saying, let's focus on that, not that we don't, not to the neglect of that. I'm missing this. How do you get the both and here? Or is it a both? And are you saying, hey, we need to really rethink this.

We're going on all these trips trying to reach people around the world when we can really use those assets and reallocate them here, reach those people, and let's make a more concentrated effort. And in doing so, we're going to reach the people all the way over there.

Well, there's, again, this is very complex. There's not a simple answer, right?

A lot of the people that are unengaged, unreached, for the most part, they're not migrating to the traditionally Western countries, if they're migrating at all, you know, outside of their small communities, so to say. All we need to do is focus on reaching those living in diaspora. We're falling woefully short. And it's not an, I don't think it's an either or.

I don't think you can say, okay, 50%, 50% kind of thing. But what I would say is one, we've got to get to the point where we're beginning to give more of a prioritization to the unreached.

I mean, as you mentioned a moment ago, among most churches, we're not in our giving and our going. I mean, one of the numbers that's out there, I mentioned in the book, for about every 30.

Every 30 people, I'll use the classic terminology, every 30 missionaries that are sent, only one out of 30 goes to the unreached people group.

When you look at our financial spending, what you just mentioned a moment ago, I mean, you know, it's very, very little goes to supporting work among the unreached people. I would say that shows that an apostolic imagination does not exist.

Because if the apostolic imagination saturated our local churches, they would be embracing a Romans 15 approach and there would be a lot more attention given giving to the sending and the going and the giving to the unreached.

And so I don't have a percentage, but I would say we need to recognize that there are aspects of what we need to do is about building foundations where foundations don't exist at home and in other parts of the world.

Roughly how many people groups are there in the world?

It depends on, you know what, it depends on what database you're looking at. There are three main databases that exist today and the, you know, some will say 11,000, some will say 12,000. I've seen some say 16,000.

Just depends on how they divide up the groups socio linguistically, culturally speaking.

And out of those numbers, what's the, is there a, an agreed upon number of how many unreached there are?

Roughly speaking, you're looking at around 7,000 that would be considered unreached. And then out of those 7,000, roughly again, you're looking at about 3,000 of those 7,000 that are considered unengaged, unreached.

So unengaged, unreached people groups means that there is no intentional evangelical church planting strategy seeking to engage them with the gospel and plant churches among them. So those are the numbers that are out there. They're rough numbers. They're easy to access online though.

Okay. Wow. There's a lot. There's a lot here. I know we're giving people fire hoses right now, J.D.

It'S throwing open the fire hydrant, man.

It is we're just throwing stuff at people because there's a lot here and your book is filled with it. I mean you've got a lot of information.

I mean even looking through your table of contents and for me being in kind of a missiology geek, I was loving it. But you have like, what is the apostolic imagination? Challenges to the imagination, apostolic identity, apostolic function.

And then you even, you go through reimagining contemporary missions, language identity, priority function, location, strategy in the West. That's a lot just there even in your title. It's just jam packed with so many things.

But I want to talk about the language for a moment because you wrote this. When terms are extra biblical talking about missions, it's difficult to assign them an agreed upon meaning.

This becomes even more problematic whenever a robust exegetical theology is not attached to such terminology.

The result is that definitions for mission, missions and missionaries will not remain constant, but will change based on contemporary realities and readers perspectives. And I think you're spot on there.

Everything becomes then mission or missions and missionaries will not remain constant but will change based on contemporary realities and readers perspective. Why does this matter? Why draw attention to this concept of mission, missions and missionaries? I know some people are saying what's the big deal?

They all mean the same thing.

And other people I know are on the opposite side of the spectrum going, finally someone that's defining this in a way that's differentiating because when everything becomes mission, nothing is and we lose the real flavor of things. So draw that out. Why talk about this terminology and why is it important?

Yeah.

When you're in a room with a variety of different Christians, especially from different congregations, different churches, different mission agencies, and you begin to talk about missions. It's kind of like witnessing to Mormons. Everyone is using the same terms, we all have different dictionaries.

Got it?

And so we've got to understand this. So for example, just think about this for a second.

Consider that even the most traditional and conservative evangelical pastors, not anyone listening to this program, of course not anyone would do that.

But consider that even the most traditional and conservative evangelical pastors will announce on Sunday the youth choir's mission trip will take place next year as they go to Appalachia to sing in the worship services of another church. And the men on mission will be doing missions in Honduras this summer by installing a roof on a school.

But today they are to pray for the missionaries planting churches in the Middle east among an unreached people group. Just look at the different ways that that terminology is used. Just in that little paragraph, we don't have any clarity on this.

There is a great deal of confusion on what we mean when we use these terms.

And so we've got to understand that if we don't explain the terms and have a very solid biblical foundation supporting those terms and then supporting the practice, the practical things that come out of those terms, what are missionaries supposed to do? How do they function? You know, what about strategy, things of that nature?

When we don't have all of that in place, then basically definition is left up to the, to the user of the term.

So how I want, you know, what I want to refer to as missions or missionaries could be totally different than what you want to use, you know, in referring to missions or missionaries. And so who's to say who's right, who's wrong, especially when you can't find the words in the Bible.

You're going to. You got to. You got to. You can't leave it there. You got.

You got to. Well, good talking with you, brother, and enjoying the show. And I don't have to go.

Well, I laughed as you were talking about this because I had an image appear to my mind. I went on a. I'm going to use air quotes for those that can't see the video mission trip.

And we were going to ring Old Oklahoma to work at Native American Bible Ministries and some old friends there, and my mentor had helped start it. And we get there and we go to this reservation and we go to the reservation and we are to run a vacation Bible school on this reservation.

First year we did it.

I went, okay, this is a little strange, you know, second year we get there, there's no kids there because they're on a mission trip running VBS someplace else. And I went, okay, this is jacked up. What are we doing when the very people we're trying to minister to are on a mission trip?

This is just how jacked up this is. But that's kind of what you're talking about. You know, we have these ideas, we use these different terms. So then define it for us.

Give us the definition. And before you do that, when you said it's all left up, how do we define it? I went, whose ever show it is?

So. Well, you're exactly right on your show.

You can do it.

You're exactly right.

I can do it. Something else. That's how we roll here. But give us the definitions and clear this up for us because it's confusing.

So think about this. The word trinity, where's that in the Bible it's not there.

No, it's not.

However.

You weren't ready for that one.

I was not ready for that. I was more, I was more prepared for the, for the five questions at the beginning than that one.

I gotta recover something.

So, so take the word Trinity for example. Yeah, it's not in the Bible, but what we have is, is a very robust theological undergirding foundation for that concept.

The concept of mission, mission theology, if you will. The church really did not get serious about developing a robust theology of mission until about the mid 20th century.

Now that doesn't mean that missions weren't taking place and that doesn't mean that there weren't people talking about going to the nations prior to the mid 20th century. Not saying that at all. But there was a lot of zeal, a lot of going.

So having said that, my suggestions moving forward at this point in time is one, we're not going to solve this issue overnight. Again, we didn't get here overnight. We're not going to solve it overnight. But I throw out a variety of suggestions to the readers. One is you.

Within your church, within your denomination, within your mission agency, you need to be very specific in defining the terms that you're going to use.

But you're going to have to recognize that while you use in house language, when you're outside of your, your tribe, you're going to have to, when you use those same terms, you're going to have to spend some time defining what you mean so that others in the room will know what you're talking about. There are some groups that they'll keep the traditional language. I think most groups will.

Just because we've got, you know, a good 400 years or so, 500, you know, you know, 400 years or so of, of this traditional language of mission and missionaries. There are some groups that they are, they're moving away from that. They are using the words like apostles, they're using words like apostolic.

There's some groups, I saw one church was referring to. We're going to have an update, you know, from our, from, you know, those that we, We've sent out.

And in the past, the church often called them missionaries.

But I noticed that recently they started saying, we're going to have an update from our sent ones, which is really the, the English translation of what apostolos or apostle is. And so, so you're going to see things like that as we move forward. But, but right now we have.

We find ourselves in a cloud, a fog, if you will, when it comes to language. And there's no easy way to move forward in this.

I would just say you just need to be very clear in the language you use in defining what, how you're using it, and then recognize that when you step outside of your, your circle of influence, you're going to have to. You can't assume everyone knows what you're talking about.

Taking, taking that into consideration with using words and terms, because that seems to me a lot of the arguments that I see today, especially on Twitter, are just arguing over words. I mean, we're really not that we don't. Because words are important. We can't assign whatever meaning we want to sign to a term.

We need to let those terms in. And unfortunately, the contemporary term can take on a whole nother meaning. Then it becomes.

It overtakes the actual true meaning because everybody starts using it in the popular nomenclature, and it gets to be very difficult. But taking that into consideration, you talk about these idea of sent ones.

What is the difference between a local church and an apostolic or sent one's team? You differentiate between those two things. What are the differences between that?

Well, when you look in the Scriptures and you ask the questions related to those that were sent out, what did they do? What, you know, what did the Apostolos, if you will, that the Greek word for apostles. What did they do when they went?

You see them primarily being involved in evangelism or preaching the gospel, meaning out in the highways and hedges of lostness, not in, not. You know, they were in Christian context at times, but primarily they were out establishing a foundation where no foundation was laid.

So you see them preaching the Gospels, you see the gospel, see them working to make disciples.

You see them working to teach those new believers what it means to be a follower of Christ within Christian community, within kingdom communities, if you will, these local expressions of Christ's body, local churches like in Thessalonica, Philippi, Colise, wherever it may be, you see them working to raise up elders, pastors out of those churches, you see them being concerned about the health and the care of those churches. But what you don't generally see, for the most part, is that they become a permanent fixture, that they're to those local churches.

They're going on to repeat the process.

Now, what I would say is, and this is really important, what exists in microcosm among the apostolic teams that we read about in the New Testament, is to be magnified in the churches that they plant. Let me repeat that.

What exists in microcosm at a microscopic level, if you will, in those teams that were sent out was to be developed and structured in a much larger fashion in the churches that they planted. So the teams were not expected to function in a way that established churches that had been around and been in the kingdom for 50 years.

They weren't expecting them to function that way.

And so what we often do is we think everything, again, is to be done through the lens of an established pastoral ministry with complex structures in place in a local church. And that, I would say, is putting the cart before the horse.

When you talk about this apostolic type of work, you know, you became imitators of us and of the Lord. You imitate me as I imitate Christ.

And so what was started there in Ephesus would grow and develop over time as different ministries would develop and grow out of this, the very simple work that was started there. But they did not come into town with a great deal of complexity. They came into town with a great deal of simplicity.

And I truly believe that if the understanding of church and all the complexities that are there today in the 21st century, if that was the mindset of the apostles in the first century, I don't think the Gospel would have left the Middle East. Because you don't turn the world upside down, which was an accusation that was brought against them.

You don't turn the world upside down with complexity.

And so what we have to do from an apostolic team perspective is take in those foundational aspects, put people on a right path, teach them the ways of Christ, make sure they're moving in a healthy direction with their own pastoral leadership, and then allow the Spirit and the Word and their community in their context to grow and develop over time.

How would you define your book in two sentences?

The first part of the book is to establish the biblical theological foundation for why we need an apostolic imagination. That's sentence one. I know it was a long sentence, but that's sentence one. Sentence two.

The second half of the book, comma, building off the first half of the book, comma, is to help us think practically about how we move forward into a different paradigm, a different approach to ministry at home and abroad. In light of the fact that we are kingdom stewards and the king is coming back.

What do you hope that God does with this book? I mean, best case scenario?

Yeah, I hope that it begins a conversation, and I hope that it serves as a catalyst to move churches, denominations, networks, mission agencies in the direction of significant change toward more of an apostolic approach to the Great Commission work that they're engaging in.

Have you found that people have received it?

Well, it's been. It's been pretty much what I thought it would be. And that is almost, almost a polar, Polarizing kind of thing. And I wouldn't.

I don't want to say that in a negative way because I realized that this. I always said that this would be the book that would make everyone mad. It doesn't make everyone mad.

But, but, but there are some that are saying, you know, know what, what, what, you know, Paine's talking about here. This is just, you know, it's all about semantics. It's not really, you know, helpful. I don't understand. This just doesn't make sense.

And then there are others that are saying, this is kind of a breath of fresh air. This is something that really is causing me to think, and I'm sharing this with others to begin having conversations about these things.

And so rare is the person that's kind of like in the middle of the road most, most of what I've seen so far. And this book just came out a few months ago, so, you know, it's still really early to tell, but, but I'm encouraged.

I'll say that I'm encouraged because even those that, that are, that are pushing back and I expect, you know, pushback, they're starting to think and they're starting to have conversations. And, and so I think that's a good thing. I think that that's really important.

And why should our folks read your book?

Because you are having me on this program and just because you say so, that is the reason they should read this book.

That's a really good answer. It is a book that makes you.

Think, and it is provocative, I will say that. And I don't. I never write.

In all my books that I've written, I never write to just provoke, but I do write to, to help us as wise kingdom stewards to move beyond where we are with the status quo. I'm not saying that everything we're doing is bad. I just think we've lost some focus.

I would agree with you on that. Even. Even as I went through your. Your book and you started getting into mission, you started getting into definitions of mission by different people.

You give Stott and Glasser and McGovern and Renee Padilla and J. Eden Kirk. And then I was looking at Eckhart Snobly and Christopher, just because you got my friend Craig Ott in there too, and Tim Tennant.

Both of those guys have been on the show. They're good friends. And I read Dean. Dean and I are not related.

But Scott and Mike Oheem, who's another friend of the show, I'm like, well, you just gave me a bunch of guests. I'm just gonna start giving. Get rebuttals from them, from the book. But it is a book that did make me think.

I even wrote that in a couple different chapters. Because you do challenge a lot of the contemporary movements.

And one of the things that struck me, as you talk about the World Council of Churches and how they moved on from mission, from being a very specifically focused task to, with very definite parameters to becoming almost everything became mission. And then you noticed, you said the same thing about Lausanne. Lausanne's kind of moved in that similar direction.

And, and, and I've always been a big fan of Lausanne, and I had thought that way. So that's where I was really challenged to go. Wait a minute, I need to rethink this.

What's the danger when we, when you see that trend where everything becomes mission, what's lost when we move that way?

Yeah, well, I think, I think an urgency and a priority to take the gospel to those where it does not exist. That, that, that becomes just one other thing among other church activities. In other words, we lose an intentionality. We lose a zeal.

We lose an apostolic zeal.

If in the room of church activities and tasks, if preaching the gospel, if planting churches, if those things, if those things are just as equivalent to other good things the church should be doing? Creation terror, it's a great thing, caring for widows and orphans. It's biblical. We must do that.

But if everything is equal, if everything as far as what the church can do in the world is equal, then why should I give any priority to try to reach an unreached people group when, you know, I need to take better care of the environment in my own neighborhood? And so I would just say, is there, is there a prioritization in the scriptures?

Is there a gravity that exists in the scriptures of what the church should be doing and giving priority to. And I would say yes. I mean, if you look at Acts chapter six, for example, I mean, the.

The food distribution over the widows caused problems in Jerusalem. And it wasn't that food distribution to widows was bad and was wrong. It was that the apostles were being distracted.

And so they were engaging in overseeing, you know, this. This ministry to the Hebraic and the Grecian widows. And Luke records that they were neglecting evangelism, preaching of the gospel and prayer.

And so they appoint these seven individuals to oversee this ministry. And it wasn't that, again, that the apostles were saying, this is bad, let's not do it.

It was that, no, this is important, this is significant, that caring for widows is what we're to be about as the established church and develop these ministries. But we're neglecting these other things.

And so what happens is that once they get this resolved, the fascinating thing is that the apostles go back to preaching the gospel and prayer. Now some look at that and they say, well, for the apostles, that was supposed to be their priority.

For the other people, you know, they were supposed to have this priority. And so again, there's no priority. But that's not what Luke does in that text.

Luke in verse six and verse seven draws his attention back to the theme that he was running through the book of Acts in those first five chapters, and that is on the spread of the gospel among the unreached.

And once this tension is resolved among the widows, the gospel then begins to travel across cultural gaps to among the most difficult people to reach at that point in time. And that was the group of the priests, and it says the priests become believers.

So if you hold to any kind of prioritization, right now in evangelical circles, for the most part, you are in a minority perspective. And I would say biblically, I don't see that holding the evidence, the weight.

What then do you see? And I know that this is a kind of a loaded answer because there's not a one size fits all.

But what do you see as the contemporary priority for the modern Western evangelical church?

Let's be. Let's be good and do good things so that people may see our good deeds and praise our Father who is in heaven. Is that biblical?

Well, yes, it's biblical, but I would say it's only part of the story. And the apostolic zeal, the apostolic intentionality is being lost.

And so while, yes, those that would argue for a variety of important activities that the church is to engage in, I would agree with, yes, the church should Be engaging in all these different activities, social justice activities, issues, things of that nature. We've got to be a part of that. We've got to be out there giving out the bread, giving out the water to the hungry to the thirsty. It's biblical.

It's what we're supposed to do. But is there a prioritization in the Scriptures of what the church should give as a higher priority in her global task? And I would say yes, there is.

A prioritization, and that's the proclamation of the gospel. I want to make sure I get your definition right or your description. The priority. How would you define the priority?

Just really succinctly, I would say the priority is about doing evangelism among those without the foundation of the gospel so that they may become followers of Christ in kingdom communities in their local areas. So popular terminology, what's the priority?

Sharing the gospel, seeing people come to faith, and churches being planted among those people to then have them live out this kingdom ethic of doing social justice, of caring for those that are in need, and for them to send out apostolic teams to others where there is no foundation.

Okay, I think we've got it. I mean, well, obviously, if we're not going to get completely. Until we read the book.

So people need to read the book to get all the details on the book. JD how can people follow what you're doing?

I'm very accessible online. You know, you could just Google me or you could just go to jdpain.org. you know, I'm on Twitter, easy to find there.

On Instagram, Facebook, as you mentioned earlier, have a podcast called Strike the Match. Yeah, I'm easy to track down. You can track me down to my email address at Samford University, so be glad to. Glad to connect with your listeners.

Well, J.D. i want to thank you for coming on the show and thank you for talking about the book. This is a very important conversation.

Not an easy one, but an important one for the church to have as we're going forward trying to accomplish the mission that he has placed us on through His Word. So I just want to thank you for coming on. Apollo's Watered.

Hey, thank you, Travis, and keep up the great kingdom work. Appreciate you, brother.

That was a lot. This was really a deep conversation, no question, because we're talking about some of the very foundations of how we think.

You know, in the church today, we've had this tendency to think that church is like a bridge. Right? There's this idea that we keep crossing this bridge. We just keep doing the thing that we're doing.

We find the churches that have been successful and we imitate them. And it's this attractional idea of having great programs and everything else. But right now we're starting to see that the bridge is shaking.

It's not that the message has stopped. Those are the cars that are going across. The message has stayed the same.

But it's the approach that we've had and how we think, think about bringing people to God.

It's been put out of church and then everyone shows up and we're seeing today that it's very different, that we have to think differently in how we reach people and try to apply the mindsets of those in the first century and how they went about accomplishing the mission of God in their world.

It's pretty incredible when you think about it, because at Apollo's Water, that's what we're committed to, to helping you rethink how to take this type of mindset and apply it into your world. That's why we want to water your faith. This is why we exist, so that you can then water your world.

Think about it differently than what people around you are thinking about it right now.

And if we can really grasp this idea that there's not a one size fits all approach, but that we can find ways to bring people to God in a way that's not manipulative, it's not formulaic, but it's truly expressing the real love for God and finding a way to really connect with them where they're at. Then I think God's going to do some incredible things. I want to thank you for listening today.

If you want to partner with us, go online to ApolloSWater.org and help us water the world with the good news of Jesus Christ. Just select the support us button in the upper right hand corner and then select the amount that works for you.

I want to thank our Apollo's Water team of Kevin, Melissa, Donovan, Eliana, Rebecca and Audrey. Today's episode is also brought to you in part by FCC Cabinets of Jacksonville, Florida. Water your faith, Water your world.

This is Travis Michael Fleming south, signing off from Apollo's Watered. Stay watered, everybody.