#53 | The Beautiful Community, Pt. 1 | Irwyn L. Ince, Jr.

It's watering time everybody.

It is time for Apollos Watered, a podcast to saturate your faith with the things of God so that you might saturate your world with the good news of Jesus Christ.

My name is Travis Michael Fleming and I am your host and today we're having one of our deep conversations, a deep conversation with my friend IRWIN L. Ence Jr. Let me tell you about Irwin. He was born and raised in Brooklyn, New York to Mrs. Margaret Ence and Mr. Irwin Ence Sr.

Following his graduation from City College of New York in Harlem with a Bachelor of Engineering in Electrical Engineering, he began his professional career as a Systems Engineer and Project Engineering Manager in the Washington Baltimore metropolitan area. In this role, he designed and implemented radio communication systems for state and local government clients.

Ence helped plant City of Hope Presbyterian Church in Columbia, Maryland. During those years, he maintained his connection to RTS DC by serving as a teaching assistant in Greek and Hebrew courses.

Ence was unanimously elected to be the 46th PCA General Assembly Moderator, the first African American elected to the position. In addition to his passion for his family and for ministry, Dr. Ence is gleefully committed to coffee and CrossFit.

When he's not spending time with his family or preaching and teaching in the church, you can find him coaching classes at a local CrossFit gym in DC. I want you to listen in as we discuss his book, which was actually just voted Outreach Magazine's Racial Reconciliations Book of the Year.

It's a great book with fascinating perspective that can help all of us build relationships across all kinds of lines for the glory of God. Happy listening, Erwin. Welcome to Apollos Watered, Travis.

Thanks for having me.

Okay, it's time for the Fast five. Are you ready?

I'm ready, I'm ready.

Okay, here we go. All right, So I was on your Facebook page. So I've got some stuff here. We're gonna find out really, really where you're at.

All right.

D.C. d.C. Or Marvel?

Marvel, without question.

Why?

I. It was formed in my comic book years in the 70s and the 80s. I much preferred the stories and the. And the artists on the Marvel side.

And so I've been a big, big Marvel guy. I would collect two, maybe D.C. titles in my comic book collecting days, but all Marvel, all Marvel.

Do you still have your comic books?

Oh, I still. Yeah, they're still in plastic, in containers in my storage, yes, without question.

Wow. Have you ever tried to get it appraised and find out how much is.

I've thought about it. I've thought about it.

Nowadays I'm like, you know, there's a comic book shop not too far from where I live, and I've thought about going in there not just to get it appraised, but looking for some titles that I. That I missed out on in my youth and maybe buying them. So, yeah, I don't know.

Okay. I would be using that to pay for more education.

Yeah.

That's what I do. Okay, so you are from Brooklyn, New York, but you're in D.C. now, right?

That is correct. Yeah. Native New Yorker living in dc.

Native New Yorker. So I just. Because I know this and I want to see here. Are you a Baltimore Ravens fan or New York Giants?

Oh, no, no, no. New York Giants.

Most New York Giants all the way.

Yeah.

Okay.

I'm not a. I'm not a Ravens hater, but I'm. You won't find me wearing that purple and rooting for now. You won't find me doing it.

So because you're a Giants fan, does that mean you are like, you're an 80s giants guy then?

Yes, 80s into early 90s. Bill Parcells, Lawrence Taylor, Phil Sims, those guys. Yes.

So Phil Sims or Eli Manning?

Oh, my gosh.

I gotta say, I gotta actually give it to Eli because when Phil Sims was the quarterback, it was much more about just controlling the clock, running the ball with Joe Morris, O.J. anderson, and, you know, and the quarterb was just there for some proficiency. And don't. Don't screw it up because we got a.

We got the best defense in the league. So Eli had much more on his shoulders to have to win games as a quarterback than. Than Phil Sims did.

Yeah, I. I was. I'm not a Giants fan, but I did root for the Giants when they played the Patriots.

That's great. Well, that's. That You. As you should. As you should.

I rooted for anybody.

Yeah.

Okay, so here's your next question number three. And you've written a book about, you know, really cross cultural life and a beautiful community.

What is your strangest or weirdest cross cultural experience ever?

Oh, wow. Oh, man. Okay. So strangest or weirdest cross cultural experience, I would say these are like learning experiences.

And so when I was a pastor, When I was, when I was a pastor, like, I'm not pastoring now, but when I was the lead pastor that we, that we planted a number of, A number of our, our folks of color who are black people were black. Members were actually second generation West African immigrants who. Mostly from Ghana, some from Togo, Nigeria, but mostly from Ghana.

And, and I would. These were young, young adults. And so I ended up performing a lot of, A lot of weddings, a number of them.

And there was always this dynamic between these second generation sisters and brothers and their first generation parents and family in terms of expectations for the weddings, who's in control, who's running the show. And they, and it would be in two parts. They do the traditional wedding, which was a traditional kind of engagement ceremony, but that was.

The couple was considered married culturally at that point. And then they would do what they called the white wedding.

And for, for years I, I thought that meant the white people wedding, like doing it like that. But it did. It just meant the white dress. The white dress. You're gonna put on the. Oh, that's good. Yeah, that was a learning.

So, you know, I, I've. Because I've done. I've actually probably done more African weddings that I've done traditional American weddings. And one of the.

I did a Burundian one and the bride came in and the groom had to lift the veil and then he had to inspect her face.

Oh, really? Okay.

And I'm like, there's some. I'm like. But I'm like, I'm sitting there going, well, that's actually pretty biblical. We got some Rachel and Leah thing going.

And I'm watching this and then, and then this. They had this group of singers come up and they start marching down. The bride and groom sit down and then they go down and dance around him. And I'm.

I'm the only Caucasian guy in the whole place. And I'm so excited that I dance back on the platform.

Right.

It was just awesome.

Just.

It was like. But we actually had. I understand that the traditional stuff, we had dowry negotiations. Yeah.

I had, I did not participate in those, but they always went on. They always were a part of the whole process.

And the one aspect that I loved, I told my daughter I was going to implement this, even though is during the ceremony, the engagement ceremony, the family of the bride would, the primary spokesman person would say, listen, you know, we have, we've tended this, this, this rose, you know, from, from seed form to now. We've watered, nurtured her, you know, made her this beauty into this beautiful flower. Why should we uproot her and plant her in your garden?

And like the groom has got an answer, like, why? Why? I was like, I told my daughter, I was like, yeah, I'm doing that. We're doing that. We're taking that one, you know, So.

I, I picked that it was more of because they went back and forth on how many cows the daughter was worth. And so I had my daughter, we were together in Uganda and I had young men walk up and I'd say, 40 cows. That's a lot of money. That's a lot of money.

And they would just shake their head and walk away because I was like, I'm going to make money off of this. I mean, my daughter would be like, dad, don't.

I'm sure she would and might be like, please. You're right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's not funny, dad. That's not funny. That's not funny. So, okay, here we go. So I know you're also a crossfitter.

I am.

So here we go. Burpees or handstand push ups. Which do you like more?

Oh, Lord. Well, that is, that's a poor question. That is a poor question. Okay, which do I dislike less?

Now I will have to say handstand push ups, even though I have to do the modified because I can't do them as, as prescribed. But nobody loves burpees. I'm. Well, no, very. I take that back. There's a couple of very strange folks I know who love.

I, I hate burpees. I hate them. I hate them. I heard this comedian, this woman was talking and she goes, you know, I tried CrossFit, she goes, but I don't remember it.

I passed out 10 minutes in.

Yeah, listen, I have a trainer, CrossFit trainer in my early years of doing CrossFit. She says, Listen, she would say to me, you know, your body is very intelligent. You know, you'll pass out before you die, so just keep going.

That's how my trainer said, what's your goals? I'm like, to not die.

Die. Right.

That's my goal, to not die. Okay, here's the last one. Last of the fast five. One thing that you do that annoys your wife or kids.

Oh, my gosh. Well, I. It's this easy for my kids, especially my daughter. I can be a loud chewer, okay? And I.

I just, you know, I'm just enjoying the cuisine, whatever it is. She can be three rooms away, all right? And she gets a hint of me, you know, smacking my lips or chewing loudly.

And all of a sudden it's like, dad, please, please. You know, so. So that is a very something. That's. That I can irritate her very, very easily.

I feel like our daughters are twins.

You've got a similar. You got a daughter with a similar.

Pet peeve, and she. Well, she inherited it from my wife. So it's multiplied. And there's a name for that. Actually, I can't.

I can't remember the name of it, but there is an actual name where people get, like, graded. Hearing someone chew and they just can't handle it really bothers them.

I find out what that is.

It's something where. Then I'm a lot more like, okay, she has a disease.

Right? That's right. This is. Right, this is. This is genetic.

It is genetic.

It's not just her preference.

Okay, so here's the last question. Actually, we already did the last question, but I'm adding one more just because I saw this on your Facebook profile. So I'm going to.

Oh, man. It's like that. I gotta go with this. Like that. Yeah, yeah.

1983.

It's like that. I was, you know, I'm singing them both in my head. They're both great. They're both great. But. But it's like that. Yeah, I gotta go with this. Like that.

Why?

Just the. The. The hook. You know that it's like that, and that's the way it is. Sometimes you just gotta deal with the fact that this is how it is.

You're not going to change it. Right? So it's tricky. Is a little bit. Is about. Is a little bit jet. Like, it's tricky to rock around. To rock around. It' time. It's tricky.

So it's just like, you know, a little more playful. Yeah, yeah.

So it's like. That is more theologically accurate.

There you go. There it is.

Okay. Okay. Well, you know, let's. Let's hear your story. I mean you grew up in Brooklyn, but just tell us a bit about who IRWIN L. Ince Jr. Is.

Yes. Yeah, I am still in New Yorker through and through. Well, I think I am at least.

But that's extremely formative for the way I actually see life and what I enjoy city living. You know, spent some, spent a couple decades in this, in the suburbs in the Maryland suburbs when I moved to this area. But now back in D.C.

it feels like home being back in an urban context. So I'm a, I'm a, I'm a lover of, of cities.

You got some folks who are the lover of rural spaces and you know, I'm a lover of cities, densely populated spaces. And my, my wife and I are, we're coming up on 29 years of marriage with four children, one and a daughter in law now.

So three, three of our children are, are adults 28, 25, almost 22 and then a 16 year old bringing up the rear. And, and I do, I do love serving in, in ministry. Before I did that I was an engineer.

But, but I love the work that I do specifically now that is related to pursuing cross cultural life and love in Jesus name. And so, and so. Yeah. And just on the, on the CrossFit side because you know that's. Yes. How do you, how do you know? Crossfitters. Right.

They'll tell you. Right. Evangelistic in the crossfitting. But I've also, through the pandemic I have taken a particular love or an affection for kettlebell training.

So I've been, I've been biasing my training toward these, these cast iron kettlebells of varying weights and, and trying to add that to my repertoire of, of health and fitness training. So. And I coach some, I coach some CrossFit stuff too. So I've, I've drinking, I've drunk the, the Kool Aid.

Yes. You have to say that you're like willingly going after kettlebells. I, you need help. You need serious help.

I don't disagree with that.

So tell us about how you came to know the Lord.

Yeah, I grew up in a Christian home. Both my parents lifelong believers in the United Methodist Church.

Mom from her early years in North Carolina, then coming to New York City as a teenager. My father's from Trinidad and the Caribbean and so I grew up in United Methodist Church in Brooklyn, New York.

I began to have a passive rejection of Christianity during the high school years. Frankly, I was just more interested in the New York Football Giants on Sundays than I was in Jesus. But When I got to college, I became really.

I just describe it as becoming anti Christian, hostile toward the Christian faith, beginning to view things in a much more racialized lens, seeing Christianity as a. As the white man's religion, a tool utilized for the oppression of people of African descent in America.

And it wasn't until we moved out of New York, my wife and I, after a couple years of marriage, moved to the D.C. area and we started attending a majority black historic Baptist church in Washington, D.C. because my wife has some family members who attended.

And they kept inviting us and we're like, well, we don't know anybody in the area, so we can go to church every now and then, make some connections. And we got really connected through the young adult Bible study that they had started. And that's where I began.

That's where the Lord really began to just kind of chip away at this part of, of stone and, and bring my faith to life. And in, in his. In his kindness. He did it for my wife and I at the same time.

So we both made professions of faith at that church and began an intentional pursuit of a life of following Jesus. So there you go.

So you went from though this historic black Baptist Church in D.C. to the PCA which is not known for its ethnic diversity. So what happened there?

Yeah, I became. A couple of things happened. One, I became exposed to Reformed theology through.

So now that I'm following the Lord Jesus, I'm listening to Christian radio and I stumble across broadcast called Renewing youg Mind with RC Sproul.

There it is.

And I didn't know, I didn't know Reformed theology any of those terms. All I knew is I was like, I man, I. I've really never heard the Bible explained and taught this way.

And I just, I just kind of dove in listening daily using their. They had Table Talk magazine was the devotional, using that for my devotionals and, and simultaneously I'm having this sense of call to ministry.

And as I was looking at seminaries, I. The Reformed Theological Seminary had started a campus in the Washington D.C. area. And so I ended up going to RTS part time for seminary studies.

And I wasn't necessarily looking to leave the church I was in, but I be. As I began my seminary studies, I recognized a couple of things. One, that I was in.

I really was in desperate need of being mentored for ministry in a way that I didn't feel like I was. I was receiving where I was and, and people now, now I'm around all of these PCA people. I didn't I don't know the pca, you know, per se.

I'm just around a lot of PCA people and there telling. And people are starting to tell me, there's this guy you should meet. His name is Kevin Smith, he's great, blah, blah, blah.

And I, you know, okay, whatever. This Kevin Smith must be some great mega church pastor, because all these people in different contexts are telling me that I should meet this guy.

Well, Kevin Smith, African American, PCA pastor, was planting a church in Bowie, Maryland. And I finally got his contact information, reached out to him and. And met him. We connected, our families connected well.

And at a certain point, I just like, man, this brother. I said, look, I don't know if you're looking for somebody to mentor, but I'm looking for someone to mentor me. And the Lord said, you're it.

So I'm adopting you as my mentor.

Wait, did you really say that?

I did, I did. I did.

I had this professor, his name was Bob Smith. He went to Philadelphia College of the Bible. He was from Jamaica, New York.

And he said when he was in Bible college, he said this girl walked up to him at breakfast and she goes, I was praying this morning and God told me that you're to be my husband. He says, you know, I was talking to him this morning myself, and he didn't say a word about it. So I just wanted.

I just want to know if you did that, if you did the same thing.

He's like, okay, yeah, Kevin was more receptive to my declaration. Okay, but. And that's. That was my entry into the pca because I joined this church plant. Mount Zion Covenant Church was the name of the church plant.

And this was, you know, it was only a few years old at the time. And the. The church plant, that is.

And then I figured out when I came under care as an intern in the Presbytery, the regional group of churches in the D.C. metropolitan area, that I'm around all of these PCA people and affiliated folks at the seminary, and they're telling me about this Kevin Smith guy.

I found out, I realized, well, I'm black, right? And Kevin is the only black pastor in the presbytery. So all these guys are saying, hey, this is the guy you should. You should connect.

Is that the only reason you think?

No, I mean, there's a. There was a desire for me to.

Without question, there was a desire to see me pursuing ministry in the PCA by those who were suggesting Kevin to me and felt like he would be a good person, that I would Connect with. But. And they were right. They were right.

But I have no doubt that he, he was the one who came to mind as opposed to other pastors in the, in the Presbyterian. Because we're both black. Yeah.

So how. So the ethnic diversity of the pca, I know that's growing, but what is, do you think the breakdown of what maybe percentage.

I mean, and you have to give us numbers on the pca.

Yeah. And the, the largest in terms of, I don't know, in terms of congregations. I, I'll just speak in terms of pastors.

You know, there are close to, or maybe over now, but close to 5, 000 pastors in the, in the denomination. And the largest makeup of ethnic minority pastors are Asian American brothers, most particularly Korean American, who number in the, in the hundreds.

And then the number of black pastures is in the 50s. I think the number of Latino pastors are also closing in on that number, if not in the 50s.

But if you combine, if you combine all of the ethnic minority pastors in the denomination, you're probably only still at like 10% of the pastors or not.

So I'm wondering though, with your book, if that's going to change. So we have your book, the Beautiful Community that just won the award by Outreach magazine for racial reconciliation book of the year.

Congratulations. Thank you. Is it like the Oscars? Do you get like a statue or you have to go to fly someplace to get a presentation? Nothing like that.

Yeah, well, maybe pre Covid they did things like that, but I don't know because. No, I mean, I got Twitter shout outs and Facebook shout outs and stuff. So social media and in the print magazine. So I, you know.

Yeah, that's awesome. That's awesome. Okay, I'll take it. So let's talk about your book now. It's called the Beautiful Community. Unity, Diversity and the Church at Its Best.

So what was the impetus behind you writing this book?

The impetus behind writing the book really was my ministry passion from the time I had a sense of call to ministry.

I shared that a little bit earlier when, you know, I had a very racialized worldview, I would say an overly racialized worldview before faith in Christ and coming to faith in Christ is right. I'm seeing in the scriptures now this language that the Bible uses to describe Christians, the followers of Jesus as family.

This familial language, right. God is our father. We are adopted into the household of, of faith. We are brothers and sisters of one another. Right.

This kind of language and particularly, you know, it's in the Old Testament as well, but particularly in the New Testament, after the coming of Christ, after his resurrection and ascension, you see this multinational multicultural diversity, diverse reality in the early church, in the biblical record. And these things are called out.

People are called out in, in places like Antioch and in Acts 11 and in, in several epistles, called out according to their ethnicity or nationality. And, and I said, well, wait a second, man.

I, I see this in the Scriptures, but I don't, I don't really see it lived out in the church in any, any real way.

And I understood and still certainly understand, particularly in the United States of America, that they are, that, that, that this didn't happen in a vacuum. There are very real historic reasons for this polarization and division. But yet there was within me, I use this phrase that I got from Dr.

Martin Luther King Jr. Called a divine dissatisfaction. Looking at what is and comparing what is with what you see in God's word and what ought to be.

And the Lord gives you a dissatisfaction about it, and you have to press into it. And so that was a ministry impetus.

And after pastoring, doing further studies and a Doctor of Ministry degree with Covenant Seminary, after doing my dissertation, I was really encouraged to, to do some more writing and turn some of that material and other material into, into this book. Now, last thing I'll say on, on this impetus, most particularly, I've.

I have been passionate about what I would call the ministry of reconciliation as a natural outworking of a rich biblical and theological commitment.

But it's only in the more recent years that I have been captivated by what, what I've come to call beautiful community, or most particularly the notion and the reality of God's beauty as a central focus or a way of describing what I'm calling the ministry of reconciliation, which we might talk about as unity and diversity and the like. And so being captured and captivated by that concept and living into it more intentionally all played a major role.

That was like, maybe the final part of my impetus for writing is this being captivated by beauty and God's beauty and what it means for us as his image.

You do such a fantastic job of bringing the person along. At first, when I'm reading, I was like, okay, where's he going? But you came up in page 10, and I want to read this, what you wrote.

Where God carries through his supremacy against the forces that oppose it and brings people to the willing recognition of that supremacy, we get a glimpse of God's kingdom. In this regard, the church is a manifestation of his supernatural Power and kingdom purposes.

The church is a living sign of the union of all things in Christ because he supernaturally reconciles us to God and to one another by the power of his spirit. Refusing to pursue this reconciliation, that's emphasis is mine. There is akin to resisting the heart of God.

It means failing the calling or failing the calling we've been given as the people of God. That's a pretty.

I mean, it's a bold statement because I know so many people that would say, okay, you know, yes, we should pursue racial reconciliation. Of course, they're most always Caucasian, Anglo white people that are saying that because they. I know that speaking to many that they think racial.

Okay, yes, we'll do that. But that's not an issue that we have. And I've heard people say that. And I'm looking at this going, I don't think you understand. Not just.

I mean, like I think of John 17, where Jesus says, I pray that they may be one, as we are one. So the world that may know, they.

May know that you sent me. Yes.

Is that really what you're seeing there is like, wait a minute, we're not pursuing this unity and therefore God's not glorified. There's a division here that shouldn't be here, that we need to fight for. And when we do, the world takes notice.

Is that really what's at the heart of it?

Man, you've really hit the nail on the head and particularly in the last thing you said is that what does it mean that we are image, Right. We're not God, we're image. And I say in the book that we were. We were designed for, and we're destined for beautiful community, unity and diversity.

But it's a. But at its essence is we were made to reflect the glory of God to this world. Right? That's what, that's what image is, is over. Right.

We're a reflection, Right? Right. And what are we reflecting? The glory of God. Right. To the world.

And this is why when you find these kinds of things, this is why when Jesus prays in his high priestly prayer, as you mentioned in John 17, that he's saying that he's praying for us, right? Those who will believe in the apostolic word. Right?

That we would be one even as he and the Father are one, that we would become perfectly one so that the world may know that the Father sent the Son. This is gospel witness to the world that Jesus is real. The unity of his people. And this is unity across lines of difference without question.

Jesus, as I Say in the book, Jesus has on his mind the shema in Deuteronomy 6:4, Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. When he prays that we would be one, that's what he's thinking, the unity and union. He's saying, Father, that I have shared with you in eternity past.

Father, Son and Holy Spirit, the perfect embodiment of unity and diversity. But that would, that would be reflected in his people as a witness to the world.

And this is what New Testament writers are engaging in, people like the Apostle Paul. And you reference that quote from the book.

It's referring to what he says in Ephesians 1, that God's plan, the mystery of God's will has been revealed. Ephesians 1. Right. According to his purpose.

And that that revelation, now that Christ has come and risen and ascended, is that God's intent is to reconcile, to unite, rather to sum up everything in Jesus Christ, to sum up everything under the lordship of Jesus Christ, things in heaven and things on earth.

And then he teases that out in a letter when he's talking to these Ephesian Christians, these Jewish believers and Gentile believers, and telling them that Christ has broken down the dividing wall of hostility in his body to make one new humanity from the two.

That essentially, just as Jesus is talking about Gospel witness, Paul is emphasizing that you all are the witnesses to the world, you're the witnesses to the city of Ephesus, that God's plan to unite everything in Jesus Christ has come to fruition. Your on the ground unity as people who are hostile to one another and now reconciled, being built up as a holy temple into a holy temple. Right.

So anyway, yeah, I'm just affirming.

No, I mean, I'm just affirming what you've already said and said a lot better than I will. But, you know, I don't think. And what, what just blows my mind.

You know, you look at the book of Acts and I'm looking at Acts and I hear people go, okay, it's not the Acts of the Apostles, it's the Acts of the Holy Spirit.

Spirit.

Okay, I get what you're saying there.

And then you get people that are so caught up with the different miracles that are there and the different expressions of the gifts and they miss to me, which is one of the dynamic aspects of the Spirit is the ethnic diversity. And it's my contention that when Luke wrote Luke, he did so to most excellent Theophilus. Right. And I think Theophilus is my opinion.

I mean, I got Some scholarship to back me up. But he's writing the book because Theophilus wants to understand this Christ that he's believed, you know, this.

This God that he's placing his faith in because they have the pantheon of gods. And people are looking at Theophilus going, why do you. Why do you believe this? Who, what God is this? And he says, I need to know more about Jesus.

And so he sends Luke off to write this letter. And then I think my opinion again, conjecture.

And his friends come back and they go, what is this thing you're involved in with all these different ethnic groups called church? What is this? And I think part of him writing the book of Acts is to show the diversity of God's kingdom there that I think so many Christians miss.

Why do so many people miss this?

Yeah, yeah, because. And it's interesting when we talk about Acts, I'm going to say, because we, as I say in the book, we love our ghettos. We love our. Our ghettos. Our.

And I don't mean communities characterized by urban blight and poverty, by the way, when I say ghetto, I mean these communities that are built on, like, people being together, like, with, like, right. Our racial, socioeconomic, academic ghettos, right? We can make almost. We have a.

A seemingly endless capacity as human beings to make a ghetto out of anything.

And so now I think you're right, if you're following the trajectory of Acts, right, as Jesus's declaration in Acts chapter one to the apostles, you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and Judea and Samaria to the ends of the earth, right? That's the trajectory that we find taking place in the book of Acts. It is not just sticking in Jerusalem, right?

It's going to be by expectation, this multicultural, multinational movement, right? And so, interestingly enough, we will talk about the. We will talk about Pentecost. And right? This is to your point as well.

Even though they were all either Jewish believers or proselytes that Luke mentions in Acts 2 that are. That are hearing the apostles speak at Pentecost, right? From Elamites and from all over the world, Luke says, right. Are hearing the apostles, right?

Worship and praise God in their own language, right. That this is setting up the. What Luke wants to focus on, right? And we miss it.

We will say, you know, we will say things like, Pentecost is the reversal of babel, right? Genesis 11, the confusion of our languages, our divides, as I call it, our ghettoization. We can't understand one another.

And the coming of the Holy Spirit, right? As a reversal of Babel. When the Spirit comes now, we can understand each other. We're reunited right in Jesus. Right.

But they, I, I don't think we go far enough into realizing that it's not just about our ability to communicate that. It is literally the impetus for our unity across every dividing line in Jesus Christ. And it just gets played out in the rest of acts.

But, but, but we miss it because we have certain levels of comfort in whatever our, our group is. And we can go further into kind of why those things are. Because I think those things are.

There are different reasons for different groupings, I should say. Right? There's a different reason that you find, you know, the historic African American church in America is majority black. Right. There's.

There's a different reason for that than there is in, you know, majority white evangelical churches. Right. In terms of. On the ground, there's connection. But there are. Right. But even still, right. That, that becomes the challenge.

How do we, whatever our background is, live into this call to really what it is, is to love neighbors across lines of difference in Jesus name.

That was part one of my conversation with Erwin. I would really heavily encourage you to come back and listen to part two as we delve even deeper into his book, the Beautiful Community.

Racism is a subject that is everywhere in our news media, in our social media feeds, it's everywhere we turn. But how are we to go about it? It seems that there are two extremes all the time. Either you're a complete racist on one side or you're woke.

And if you're not a part of that, then you're the opposite. And people start shouting back and forth to one another. But keep.

Can't we be racially sensitive and work toward being the community that God desires us to be while listening to one another and truly coming together in community? And that's what God desires for the body of Christ.

And that's why I like Erwin's book so much, because it gives us a theological undergirding on how we can truly become this beautiful community that God desires us to be. And part of that is recognizing when there's been injustices and speaking up for it.

But it also means standing for truth in every which way, no matter where we find it and no matter who says it. And that is our responsibility as Christ followers to pursue that.

And if we can't find that harmony and that beautiful community within the church, then how in the world is our society going to find it? I want to thank Erwin for coming in and I want to encourage you to come back and listen to part two of our conversation.

You will be very glad that you did.

And just as a spoiler alert, get his book if you haven't ordered it already, the Beautiful Community with IRWIN L ence jr and you will be glad that you did. I also want to give a shout out to our sponsors for Kathy Brothers of Keller Williams Innovate.

Kathy's been a part of our team and Kathy invites you to be a part of hers.

Because if you're looking to buy or sell real estate in the Chicagoland area, buy or sell a home or get a house, whatever a case may be, Kathy is the person that you need to call. Because Kathy cares about her clients, she cares about people, and she is the right agent for you. I know this because she was ours.

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So God's name might continue to radiate all over the world and his kingdom might continue to expand all over the world. And God is blessing this podcast.

I'm amazed at how many people are listening from around the world and we are so grateful to have you a part of our Apollos army. And I would ask, would you please pray for us? This is a spiritual endeavor and we know it and we need your help. We need your prayers.

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We are so glad and honored that you would listen to us and join our conversation as we're seeking to water the faith of people around the world. And we hope that your faith was watered today. And I want to encourage you to water your faith, water your world.

This is Travis Michael Fleming signing off from Apollo's Watered. Stay watered, everybody.