#170 | Discovering God Through Diversity: A Conversation on Polycentric Missiology with Dr. Allen Yeh

Turkey has had the gospel since the first century.

Ethiopia has had the gospel since the first century.

And then finally, the apostle Paul goes to Greece, and Europe was the last.

And he didn't even want to go, you know, but then he got the vision of man from Macedonia who's saying, come over and help us.

And then the Holy Spirit forbade him from going back to Asia.

And Paul's like, oh, gosh, okay, fine, I'll go talk to those Europeans.

We think Europe as always being the center of the faith.

And I'm like, dude, India, Turkey, Ethiopia have been Christian since the first century, earlier than Europe.

It's watering time, everybody.

It's time for Apollo's Watered, a podcast to saturate your faith with the things of God so that you might saturate your world with the good news of Jesus Christ.

My name is Travis Michael Fleming, and I am your host.

And today on our show, we're having another one of our deep conversations.

Did you hear that?

When we think of Christianity going to the world, we often don't think that Europe was actually one of the last places to get it in the ancient world.

Although it's many of those Europeans that settled the United States.

That's good for us to keep in mind, because we aren't really the center of the world.

We have a tendency to do that.

I mean, we all do.

We do it with ourselves and we do it with our country, especially for those of us in the West.

I mean, we think we have all the answers.

We have all the resources that causes other people around the world to think that Christianity is actually a Western white religion, but it's not.

It's a faith that originated in the ancient near east and is made up of people from all over the world.

That's one of the things that I realized early on in my first ministry.

I was a youth pastor in the city of Chicago, working with kids from all over the world.

I was a small town kid, and I really had no clue what I was doing.

So in order to somehow disciple these kids that were finding their way to our gym, I, of course went online or checked out the catalogs trying to find this material.

Of course, I talked to other people too, and I got some material.

And what I found quickly as I went through that material and some more, it was very ineffective because the audience for that material was this kind of prototypical white family in the suburb with 2.3 kids.

And again, not that the material itself was bad, but it was aimed at a specific audience that was very, very different than My own.

The needs were different, the backgrounds were different.

The material wasn't aimed at the kid in the single parent home or the immigrant home.

So I finally decided, after a few years of just complete futility, to write my own stuff.

What I had been learning from the Word of God, what I had seen in these different cultures that had been reached in the Bible, and it actually transformed our ministry.

It became a light bulb moment for me.

The nations are here and the nations are actually reaching the nations.

See, when I was working with those kids years ago, and this has been confirmed at every other ministry stop, I've had that God brought the nations to me in that youth ministry, some of them who didn't know Jesus, I learned that I was to reach them and I was learning how to reach them effectively.

But other of those kids came from different parts of the world and they already had a passionate desire to know him and to make him known.

And for many of them, as I would get to know them, I would learn the stories of their parents and their grandparents and how their faith actually came at the cost of great suffering of previous generations.

I learned how to reach people, but I also learned about what it meant to suffer for Jesus.

I learned that I did have something to teach, but I also had something to learn.

And it came from people who were very different from me, from totally different backgrounds, from parts of the world that I would probably never see.

They taught me so much about who God is and what it means to follow him faithfully in context far different than my own.

And that's why on our show we talk to different people from a lot of different backgrounds with different perspectives, because God is working in and around the world, and the church there is exploding.

Now, I'm not trying to romanticize it or make it sound like it's bigger or better.

No, they have their own issues and their own problems.

But I do think that we can learn from one another, which is why we embrace global voices.

On our show, we want to talk to people who know about what's going on in the world or who have different backgrounds than we have, because we can't do this on our own.

God made us to be dependent upon him and one another.

You know, last fall, we talked with theologian Kelly Capek about the fact that we're only human.

That's a good thing because God made us that way on purpose to be dependent upon Him.

And the creation account makes it clear that Adam needed Eve.

We need one another.

We need the global church.

We need voices different than our own.

With different perspectives from different ethnic backgrounds who see things differently.

We're all looking at the Bible together, but we might see things that they miss and they might see things that we have blind spots to just like them.

Because our brokenness often makes it hard for us to see God and one another.

Today on our deep conversation, I have Alan.

Yeah.

Is a guest.

As you'll soon find out, Alan is a fantastic scholar, he's a funny guy, and he's a man who cares greatly about what God is doing in and around the world.

Alan thinks that God made the church out of different cultures from the beginning for a very specific reason.

And it all has to do with what he calls polycentric missiology.

Now I know big word.

What in the world is polycentric missiology?

I'm glad you asked.

But before we do that, we have something else that we want to talk to you about before we delve into this subject with Alan.

Yeah.

We do need your help.

You know, we can't do this ministry without caring people like you who want to make a difference, we know that's who you are.

You have a deep desire to make Jesus known.

You want to water thirsty souls because you yourself are hungering for that water.

You want to go deeper.

You want to make a difference.

You're tired of going through the motions.

You're tired of playing church.

You're tired of all the new programs that are out there.

And it seems to be the same, recycled, rehashed, stuffed, over and over and over again.

You want a different perspective.

You want a paradigm shift.

And that's why we're here to help in that.

We've had that paradigm shift and we've seen God bless it, and we want to invite you into that.

In fact, we want to invite you to help make this difference in the world, this paradigm shift at a macro level where people are changing their thinking, they're changing their perspectives, and they're beginning to see God in a new way.

Not that God himself has done anything new or different.

It's just our perspective is shifted that we can see things that have always been there.

We're simply rediscovering it and helping you to see that too.

Which is why we need you to be one of our watering partners.

We need difference makers who will lock arms with us to help water the thirsty soul of believers around the world.

There's a link in these show notes.

Click that and simply select the amount that works for you.

Whether it's a one time gift or a monthly partnership, I want you to know that you're enabling thousands of people to be reached and refreshed with the gospel each month.

Now, with that in mind, let's get to my conversation with Alan.

Yeh, Happy listening.

Alan.

Yeah.

Welcome to Apollo's water.

Glad to be here.

All right, are you ready for the fast five?

Let's do it.

Okay.

I know you have lived all over the place, your bio is in your book, but here's my question.

The ocean, mountains or the city?

Which one would you live in and why?

Oh, ocean for sure.

I am a water person.

I've always loved swimming.

I love everything about the ocean.

I love being on boats, I love seafood.

So I often feel like if I'm in the ocean, I'm, you know, I love traveling to different countries, but if I feel like I'm in the ocean, I feel like I'm in another world, you know?

So, yeah, I just saw the recent Avatar movie which is all about, you know, the oceans, and I loved it.

Oh, really?

I have to see it.

I haven't seen it yet.

I haven't seen it.

I want to see it.

Okay, now you're in Southern California.

So the best food in Southern California that you can't find anywhere else is.

Oh, man.

Well, we have the biggest Korean population outside of Korea and we have the biggest Mexican population outside of Mexico, so.

And you fuse the two.

This is called Kogi tacos.

Okay.

So this is like Korean marinated beef in a taco.

And I'm like, that's heaven.

Right?

I mean, you just put the.

That's two things together.

Yeah.

So you can't find that anywhere else.

I love the fact that you could just fuse culture, food like that.

I just, I love that.

I want more of that.

Speaking of food, because you've traveled to like, how many countries have you been to?

Like 60, 64 at last count.

Gosh.

Okay, That's a lot of countries.

So you have tried a lot of different foods.

What's the craziest food that you have ever eaten?

Well, I always try to.

Whatever's local.

And so one time I was up in Peru in the Andes mountains.

I was up in Cuzco, which is the capital of the Incas or Quechua people now.

And so I was like, okay, what's the local food?

So it is something called cuy C U Y.

It's roasted guinea pig.

Okay.

So I walk into the restaurant, go to a local restaurant.

I don't want to go to a tourist restaurant.

So I go into the local restaurant and order this thing.

Now you have to Understand that I have altitude sickness at this point.

Okay.

It's 10,000ft above sea level, so I'm feeling nauseous already.

Headache, you know, shivers like I'm not feeling good.

And I order this cui it comes out.

And guinea pigs, you know, they look like big hamsters when they're alive.

They're pretty cute.

This thing comes out, looks like a.

A rat after a nuclear holocaust.

Right?

And I'm like, I got to do this.

Right.

I got it.

I overdid it.

I have.

I have to show up.

So I take my knife and fork, and I'm about to dive into this thing, and then the.

The local people in the restaurant see me, and they're like, no, no, no.

Consos manos.

Right, with your hands.

So I'm like, oh, you know, most things I like.

Okay.

Speaking of places you've been to all these different countries, what's one place that you've never been that you want to go to?

There can't be that many places left.

I mean, if you've been to, like, 64 countries, I mean, I mean, that's what.

I guess you do have, like, 130 other countries you haven't been to yet, right?

Right.

Right.

There's about 200 countries in the world.

Well, let me answer this on two levels.

One is Croatia.

I've never been to Croatia.

Never been to Croatia.

I've heard.

So I make it sound like I've been there.

I haven't.

Like, you've ever been there.

Of course it's beautiful.

Like, I love Italy and Greece, and Croatia is the hidden jewel of the Mediterranean.

It's hidden.

It's right between the two countries.

And because it's formerly communist, you know, they.

They haven't had a lot of western tourists for a long time until the fall of the Iron Curtain.

And so it's more untouched, if you will.

Supposed to be beautiful.

I've heard so many wonderful things.

The other is.

So I'm a marathon runner, and one of the things I love to do is run in, you know, all over the world.

And every time I go to a conference or something, I try to see if there's a marathon nearby.

And so I've run in some crazy places.

And, uh, one goal for marathoners is some people tried to do the seven continents.

Okay.

And I've been to every continent except Antarctica.

Yes, there is an Antarctica marathon, and.

Yes.

Seriously?

Yeah.

So one day I want to do the Antarctica marathon and, you know, do the seven continents.

So how.

How many marathons have you done.

30.

It's 29 more than me.

I did one, and it was.

I did Chicago.

Oh, that's awesome.

It was.

It was an accomplishment.

I just.

To get it done.

But 30.

I don't understand the people that do them back to back.

I mean, like, literally, I had a guy finish, and he just kept running, and he ran a different one right after that.

Oh, really?

Oh.

Oh, yeah.

I mean, there was a guy that was on.

On the news just the other day.

He's run one every day for an entire year.

Oh, yeah.

People are nuts.

I don't.

I don't have that kind of endurance.

But.

But I can see all the medals behind you.

Are those all marathon medals?

They are.

Yeah.

Those are.

Congratulations, by the way.

That's an accomplishment.

That's an accomplishment.

I've done the big six, which is the six most prestigious marathons in the world.

Which are.

Chicago is one of them.

Yes.

Berlin, Tokyo, London, New York, and Boston.

Those.

Those are the six.

Yeah.

So which one's the most fun?

You know, I liked all of them.

Oh.

One cool thing is, after I ran the London Marathon, the royals were waiting at the finish line, and they were putting the medals around the necks of the finishers.

And so I saw William, Kate, and Harry, and I was like, who do I choose?

Who did it?

So I chose William because I was like, excuse me, because he is the future king, so.

Oh, there you go.

How many people can say that?

Like, William.

I have a picture with me and Prince William, and he's putting the medal around my neck.

Yeah.

Oh, you're special.

Look at you.

Look at you.

30 marathons and you get a winner with Prince William.

Oh, the future king.

Okay.

But I think the one that I'm most proud of is Boston, because Boston's the only marathon that you have to qualify for.

And I trained my tail off to qualify for Boston, and I finally did it.

So congratulations to you.

Congratulations.

Yeah.

Boston's the oldest and most prestigious marathon in the world, so that was.

It's number one.

It's number one.

Number one.

What's number two?

I don't know, actually.

Being American.

Is it New York or Chicago?

Which one?

New York.

I know.

Chicago is great.

Now that's it.

Now you're backing away to get a better answer.

Make me feel good.

That's okay.

I'm not offended.

Chicago has better pizza.

Wait, who has better pizza?

Oh, you're a good man.

You are a good man.

Chicago, pizza.

All right, here we go.

Because of all the different places You've been.

So here's going to be a fun one.

You have to stick with me.

If you are in airport, what airport would you be and why?

Singapore, number one airport in the world.

Well, it's either between that or Seoul.

So Incheon airport in Seoul, Changi Airport in Singapore.

It's beautiful.

Okay, I have to say this is about airlines, not airports.

But American Airlines are terrible.

Oh, they're horrible.

All of them, horrible.

United, Delta, American, whatever, you name it, they're horrible.

You go on Asian Airlines or Middle Eastern Airlines.

Is you fly economy, you feel like you're in like business class, right?

Yeah.

Nice.

The food is so good.

Everything's.

And the airports are wonderful.

So I flew Etsy, I've flown Etihad a few times.

Oh, just.

It's different.

It's.

You feel like you're royalty.

Like this is high class.

Like it's so different.

So different.

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Let's hear a little bit about your biography because you're a very fascinating guy.

You mentioned that your parents, they're from different, different backgrounds, right?

You're one is Taiwanese, is that correct?

Yeah.

So my dad is Taiwanese, my mom is Chinese or from mainland China.

But ethnically, same ethnic group is just different countries.

Yeah, got it.

Okay, I got it.

But you were born in Guam.

You put that in the book.

You were born in Guam.

Then you grow up in Southern California, you go to school in New England and In England, in the uk, and then you have an area of expertise in like Latin culture.

I was like, wow, this is truly just this kind of a Renaissance man, really knowing all of these different things.

So give us a little bit of your biography and how all those things came together to enable you to be a missiologist.

Yeah, well, I mean, I didn't choose where I was born, but I think it's cool that I was born in Guam, which is US territory, but it's on the other side of the Pacific Ocean, so it's on the other side of the international date line.

So the nickname is where America's day begins.

So I'm a natural born US citizen, but it's closer to Asia.

So I just feel like this is part of my identity.

I always identified with the Pacific islands and I technically, Taiwan, which is where my dad is from, is a Pacific island as well.

And so I grew up going to those places.

But because I grew up in Southern California, the Latino culture is part of me as well, because LA just has so many Latinos and Southern California does.

So I got interested in that culture as well.

And of course, I did my upper studies, second master's degree in the University of Edinburgh in Scotland, and then PhD or Oxford University, they actually call it DPhil, so just.

It's the same thing, Doctor of Philosophy.

But I don't know why Oxford says DPhil instead of because they're Oxford.

They have to have the cool title.

That's just Oxford.

It's how it goes.

It's insider language.

So whenever you hear someone say DPhil, it's like, oh, that's Oxford.

Yeah.

So I like to tell people I'm a Chinese guy from the United States who studied Latin America in England, you know, so.

But the Latina part was also an interest because of social justice.

I remember when I was studying at Gordon Conwell, I was there from 98 to 01, and at the time, literally no Western theologians were writing about social justice.

I mean, Catholic theologians were, but not like evangelical Protestant.

And so I found in Latino evangelicals the social justice drive.

You know, I was reading people like Rene Padilla, Samuel Escobar, Orlando Costas, who I eventually did my DPHIL on, on Costas.

And they have something called holistic mission or mission integral.

And so these guys are the ones who convince John Stott of this.

And John Stott was the architect of the Lausanne Covenant.

So the whole Lausanne movement is sort of based on this holistic mission, which is from the Latino evangelicals.

So I was just fascinated by this trend and because Latin America didn't have a fundamentalist modernist controversy, so they didn't like rip apart, you know, evangelism and social justice.

They've always been holistic.

And so I feel like, or rather they've always been more biblical.

With you.

So I can see it.

The book's been out for a while now.

But when I came upon the title, first of all, it struck me because I'd not seen that before.

Polycentric missiology, which kind of leads us into more about who you are.

But it's 21st century mission from everyone to everywhere.

And I know some of our listeners are going right now, you said what?

Polycentric missiology.

I know it's not a term that you're going to be familiar with because it's not Pollyanna, it's not polycystic, it's polycentric.

And I know people are trying to pronounce it.

And many of our audience right now is going, I don't understand what missiology is.

I have no idea what polycentric missiology is.

What is polycentric missiology?

And why does it matter?

Because I think it does.

To break it down, poly just means many.

Right?

Like a polygon or polymath.

So many, many centers.

So missions used to be from the west to the rest, but now it is from everyone to everywhere.

And this is, this is a game changer for Christianity.

This is a, what they call a Copernican revolution because Copernicus was the guy who said that it is not the sun that revolves around.

Oh, that's what we were talking about earlier.

Right?

I messed that up.

I said Copernicus of Galileo.

Okay, Copernicus.

I know, Galileo popularized it.

Yes.

So both of them are.

Woohoo.

Both.

But the Copernican revolution is when instead of the sun revolving around the earth, you realize the Earth revolves around the sun and this flips everything on its head.

So the study of world Christianity is the idea that the center of gravity of Christianity has shifted from the west to the non Western world.

But non Western is a little bit derogatory because people don't like to be defined by what they're not.

Right.

You said that in the book.

I'm a non man.

You mean woman.

That's the example you use.

Like we don't want to be by what we're not.

Just say who we are.

Keep going.

I'm sorry.

So the preferred terms would be 2/3 world or majority world.

Because this refers to the fact that the majority or 2/3 of the world's population lives in Africa, Asia and Latin America.

But the UN is more secular term.

They use the term global South.

I like majority world or 2/3 world better because it includes Asia.

Global south is Latin America and Africa and it's more of a economic term to talk about developing countries.

But Asia is also included in this mix, so I feel like I prefer that.

But when the center of gravity of Christianity shifted from the west to the majority world, this was a game changer for mission.

Because not only did the majority of missionaries, they don't go from the west to the majority world anymore, but the majority world, they actually are coming to the west to do missions.

So there's reverse missions.

Another implication is that the power is no longer in the majority, or financial and political power, I should say so.

And you know, in some ways this is harkens back to the first century where Christians were small, minority, persecuted, oppressed, and yet they thrived.

But when Christianity is married to power and money, it gets very dicey pretty quickly.

So I feel like there's some sense and more return to an authentic faith.

And honestly, polycentrism was how Christianity was at the very beginning.

Think about this.

Where did Christianity start?

Israel, which is in Asia.

Okay.

And then it spread through the Apostle Paul to Turkey, which is Asia Minor.

Right.

So we're still in Asia.

But then also In Acts chapter 8, you see the story of Philip and Ethiopian eunuch.

So Philip, not only he goes to Samaria, it's the area of the half Jews.

And then he meets an African eunuch who gets converted and he brings it to Ethiopia.

And According to legend, St.

Thomas, who was one of the 12 doubting Thomas, but when he said, Jesus, I won't believe it until I touch the holes in your feet and sides.

And then he says, my Lord, my God.

So apparently, according to legend, he was so transformed by that encounter that he took the gospel further than anyone else.

He sailed down the Persian Gulf and, and went all the way to the southwest, India, which is today known as Kerala.

And so India has had the gospel since the first century.

Turkey has had the gospel since the first century.

Ethiopia has had the gospel since the first century.

And then finally the apostle Paul goes to Greece.

And Europe was the last of those three continents to receive it.

And he didn't even want to go, you know, but then he got the vision of man from Macedonia who's saying, come over and help us.

And then the Holy Spirit forbade him from going back to Asia.

And Paul's like oh, gosh.

Okay, fine.

I'll go talk to those Europeans.

Right?

And the first person he converts when he's in Europe is in Philippi.

It's Lydia.

It's a woman, okay.

She's the first European convert.

So anyway, I'm going to say this whole thing about women later because this is also the future of the majority world church is they're largely female.

But, you know, you have this polycentrism that's in the ancient world.

We think about Europe as always being the center of the faith.

And I'm like, dude, India, Turkey, Ethiopia have been Christian since the first century earlier than Europe, right?

And then even when it did go to Europe, it wasn't centered in Europe.

In fact, the early church had five centers.

There was Rome and then there was Constantinople, which today is Istanbul.

And it rattles two continents.

It's Asia and Europe.

And then you had Antioch and then which is in sort of it's in modern day Turkey.

And you have Jerusalem, which is in Israel, and then you have Alexandria, which is in Egypt.

So if you look at this, the early church had five centers.

One in Europe, one in Eurasia, two in Asia, and one in Africa.

Okay?

It is not Western centric.

It is tri continental, even from the beginning.

And so I think this is pretty amazing.

So in a sense, polycentrism is not actually a new thing.

It's actually a return to the original thing.

And so this Europeanization of Western modernization of Christianity was actually an aberrance for about a thousand years.

But if your money be your leader, can your power be divine?

In this book, you actually talk about stuff that I think a lot of our audience doesn't talk about, because as you said, there's been a return.

It's returned because there was an absence about a thousand years.

You're seeing people go back to what we actually see in the New Testament, as you've already described with the Book of Acts, really showing how the world was already going to different parts of the world.

And just as an aside, we had Sam George on the show.

And I asked Sam, I said, how far back does your heritage go?

Because I knew it was a long time, but I know most people don't think it that way.

And he's like, oh, the 12th century.

And I was like, of course.

You know, I mean, no one in my.

I don't know anybody in my audience that had their faith goes back that long.

And it's awesome.

I love it.

But I love how it's a corrective.

And I think it's changing people's minds.

Because people are starting to see, wait a minute.

This is a whole lot closer to the world in the New Testament than we realized.

Yes.

And I think this is the most awesome thing about it.

But you write as a historian, too, and in this book you talk about these mission conferences.

And I know some people are like, oh, missions conferences?

I don't want to talk about missions conferences.

No, you need to talk about these missions conferences, because these missions conference are huge and they trickle down to where we're at right now.

So just give us a brief overview of these mission conferences and why they were such a big deal.

And it's starting off.

Why is that such a big deal?

I want to take you back even earlier.

Oh, we're going back even further.

Take me, Alan, take me.

I'm going to be historical geeking out here.

Okay.

When people say to me, like, I don't care about these ecumenical missions conferences, I'm like, okay, okay.

Ecumenicism, That's a bad word, right?

I know, right?

It is for a lot of people.

They hear the ecumenical and, oh, that's bad.

But it's not.

Tell what ecumenical means.

It means all the churches together.

And I'm like, Look, John 17.

Jesus's high priestly prayer.

I pray that all of them may be one.

Just as you are in me and I am in you, may they all be brought to complete unity so that the world may know that you have sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

What kind of unity should Christians have?

The same kind of unity that the Father and the Son have.

And yet we're, like, fighting each other, right?

We're not living out Jesus's high priestly prayer in John 17.

It's crazy.

And then people think it's a bad word.

It's a witness, right?

When the church is unified, Jesus says, then the world will know that Jesus is Lord.

But when we're divided, people look at us and go, whatever, right?

Like, they're so united.

I don't want to be part of that.

I mean, it's a missional witness to be united.

This is why missions conferences are usually the most ecumenical, because they bring together everyone.

People put aside their differences because they're like, we got to work together to, like, evangelize the world, right?

And so to people who are like, who cares about ecumenical conferences?

I'm like, the first ecumenical conference was 325 A.D.

nicaea.

Ever heard of the Nicene Creed?

I'm like, I believe in God the Father Almighty and in Jesus Christ is only Son.

I mean, all of that comes from the Ecumenical Council.

And this is where some of our most solid foundational theology comes from.

Look, mission's the mother of theology.

And so the Apostle Paul, when he did all these missionary trips and he crossed all these different cultures, he wrote more theology because he's like, oh, I've never thought about how the Gospel can reach these Gentiles.

I better write about it.

Right.

First Corinthians.

That's right.

How does the Gospel reach these people in Rome?

Romans?

He writes, right?

Yeah, yeah, for Galatia.

Oh, yeah, let's talk about the circumcision thing.

Let's get to that right now.

Yeah, that's a big deal.

Exactly.

The Jerusalem Council and all this stuff.

And so the more missions he does, the more theology he writes, you know.

And so if it wasn't for the fact that he was a missionary to all these places, we wouldn't have half the New Testament, you know.

And then ecumenical councils are when all these Christians come together and they're like, okay, we've crossed more cultural boundaries, let's create more theology.

Because theology is trying to address cross cultural situations.

How did these cross cultural people talk to God or talk about God or interact with God?

Right.

That's, that's what theology is, is in human attempt to try to get people to learn how to combine their culture with thinking and talking about God and doing, you know, living it out.

It's not just thinking about it, it's doing it.

And so when you have these ecumenical councils like Nicaea and Constantinople and Chalcedon, the Chalcedonian confession is one of the most important confessions that we have.

And that came.

And so we have these modern day ones too, because you have this constant changing of circumstances in the world, with politics, with history, with cultures, with technology, with the Enlightenment, with all these different things.

We need to continue coming up with new theology to address these things.

And this is why we need constant these conferences.

And whenever these conferences come together, what did they do?

They produced new creeds, new new documents.

And these are sort of a record for the future of the church that we can stand on.

We don't look back at 325 A.D.

and say, forget Nicaea, it doesn't matter.

So long ago, what does it have to do with me?

A bunch of those Christians got together and, you know, didn't consult with Me and I wasn't there and.

No, that's ridiculous.

Right?

I mean, we, we all say that's important.

That's important.

Yeah.

And so things like Lausanne and Edinburgh.

Because this is the birthplace of the modern ecumenical movement.

And out of this came the International Missionary Council and the World Council of Churches and the Lausanne movement and all these other.

It just grew arms and legs.

But go back even further than that.

Talk about William Carey for a moment, because you brought out something with William Carey that I think some people know the name, they don't know much about him.

And you even debate whether or not he's the first missionary that's really kind of gone out from the Western world.

But he is known, quote unquote, at least popularly known as the father of modern day missions.

Tell us why he's an important figure and why we need to know about him.

Now, William Carey from England lived in the 18th century.

He was a simple shoe cobbler, but he decided he wanted to go to missions in India.

So he packs up and goes to India.

Now he's known as the father of modern missions, but he's not the first.

So some people have debated me on this, some other mystiologists, and they're like, how can he be the father if he's not the first?

Because there was the Moravians before him with.

This guy has the best.

Count Ludwig.

Yeah, that.

That's the best name ever.

You need to have that as a university.

I teach at University of Zinzendorf.

Ludwig Nicholas von Doesendorf.

And.

And he was amazing.

He, and he advocated like this unending prayer chain, right.

Which today has manifested itself in ihop.

Not Pancakes, but International.

I know what you mean, but Pancakes, yeah.

So ihop, the International House prayer in Kansas City, owes its existence to Zinzendorf, right?

They have this unending prayer chain.

So Zinzendorf said this is the foundation of missions prayer.

And I agree with that.

But why is Carry so much more important than Zinzendorf, even though he came after him?

And it's actually not because of his missionary stuff that he did, even though that was important.

When Kerry went to India, he translated the Bible into all these different Indian languages.

He showed Indians how to do agriculture and botany, and he he did social justice stuff, and he prevented widow burning, which is called sati practice in Hinduism.

It actually has a much longer title, but people just abbreviate it to An Inquiry.

And basically, he advocates for three major ideas.

And the first idea is that missions needs to.

Well, he says it needs to be done through parachurch organizations, or mission societies, as he called them.

All right?

So he said that the things like the lms, the London Missionary Society, the bms, Baptist Missionary Society, cms, Church Mission Society.

So these were some of the popular ones at the time.

And he.

He helped to found some of them.

These need to be the launching platforms because he looked at Catholics and he's like, why?

Why are Catholics beating us at this game?

Right?

We are not actually doing missions as well as the Catholics.

Then he realized, because Catholics have monastic societies, they have the Jesuits and the Dominicans and the Franciscans and these brotherhoods of monks who actually go out and do missions.

He's like, we don't have anything like that.

So he said, we need to create those, right?

Today, you know, parachurch organizations come about in the form of, like, you know, OMF and Campus Crusade.

And, you know, there's IBE and there's.

There's all the juice for Jesus and there's.

We have these things.

But this idea came from William Carey, which is why he's the father of modern missions, because before him, no one did this.

Another idea was he put the great commission, Matthew 28, on the map.

I mean, today it's like the missional verse, right?

Therefore, go and make disciples of all nations, teaching and baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit.

But back then, people were.

The Catholics were like, no, that's not about missions.

And it was really about Jesus commissioning the 11.

That's it, right?

It has nothing to do with us.

But William Carey said, wait a minute.

What's the chief verb in the Great Commission?

It's not evangelized.

It's go and make disciples.

And he says, wait a minute.

If the disciples.

If Jesus is Talking to the 11 disciples and telling them, go and make disciples, then that means these new converts are disciples, which means they are also beholden to the Great Commission.

See, that was his logic, right?

Anyone who's a disciple has to Follow the Great Commission.

And if the Great Commission is telling disciples to make more disciples, then that means every Christian is a missionary.

So suddenly it launched this.

The 19th century became the.

The great century of missions because of William Carey's ideas.

Suddenly, these people launched.

All Protestants launched all over the world in global missions.

And more people became Christians in the 19th century than like any.

Any century up until that point.

And the third thing that an inquiry advocated for was the use of demography, which is social science, statistics.

So he would like, go.

He would say, how many Christians are in this country?

How many Muslims are in this country, how many Hindus are in this country?

And he would use statistics to try to strategize.

So those are the three contributions of an inquiry.

And this is why William Carey is the father of modern missions and not Zinzendorf.

Zinzendorf did missions and he sent out his Moravians everywhere.

They conquered the globe.

I mean, in terms of.

But it was William Kerry's ideas that propagated.

So now William Carey also had this other thing.

He had a theologian who was backing him named Andrew Fuller.

Andrew Fuller was back in England, and William Carey was in India.

And he regarded Andrew Fuller as his rope holder.

Okay.

You know, it's kind of like when you go into a cave, dark cave, it's never been explored.

You have your buddy stand at the mouth of the cave, you tie a rope around your waist, and you go into the cave.

That way, if you ever get lost, like, you can trace your way back or your buddy can pull you back, right?

So missionaries had that.

They had the person out on the field and you had the person back home who was their rope holder, their theological mainstay.

So William Carey had his rope holder, Andrew Fuller, back home in England.

But one day he had this idea.

He says, you know what?

And this was a revolutionary idea.

And Andrew Fuller, despite the fact that he was a theologian, he said colloquially, you're an idiot.

Don't do this.

That's what he said.

It wasn't colloquially.

It was real.

He's like, billy, you're an idiot.

And he shot down the idea.

Historical example of a fail.

And so William Carey had this idea.

He wrote it down.

You know, we have the letter that he wrote to Andrew Fuller.

And Fuller's like, no.

And so it never happened.

Why?

Why Cape Town, South Africa?

Because back then, colonial.

The Suez Canal wasn't cut yet, right?

So they couldn't Go down the Red Sea.

So they had to actually go around the Cape of Good Hope, around the bottom of Africa, in order to get to Asia.

It was a long journey.

And so Cape of Good Hope became like Cape Town.

South Africa became a refueling station for Europeans as they're making their way over to Asia.

And so it just was a crossroads of business and civilization and commerce.

And so he said, let's meet there.

It's easy for everyone to get to crossroads of everywhere, and let's just meet there.

And they didn't take his advice.

Let's fulfill William Carey's vision.

But then they did it in Scotland, right?

The opposite way.

To be fair.

So they held this missions conference in the UK.

The center of gravity of Christianity is actually in Africa.

I mean, it is also in Asia and Latin America, but particularly in sub Saharan Africa.

So they're like, let's fulfill William Carey's vision 200 years after the fact.

And they did.

Get down in the car one time give it all, bust it open heart let me see ja.

Get down in the car one time Give it up, bust it open heart let me see ja.

You mentioned how again, the chief verb wasn't to.

It was not evangelism, but it was actually.

It's more discipleship.

But you said one of the biggest dangers I'm going to quote you here, you said nominalism is a bigger problem than ever before, demonstrating the ever increasing need for discipleship.

The chief verb in the Great Commission to be the focus of missions, not evangelism.

And it's one of the great laments.

I hear that in churches all the time.

Why is it so important to keep that emphasis?

And why is nominalism such a big deal today?

All right, let me give you an analogy.

I think of evangelism like a wedding and discipleship like a marriage.

Evangelism is like a wedding because it is the initiatory act that kicks off the relationship.

Discipleship is like the marriage because it is the day to day lived out experience with the other where you have to die to yourself daily.

Okay, now which is more important, the marriage or the wedding?

Well, I hope that most people would say it's the marriage, but unfortunately, you look at the way Westerners spend their money.

They spend it all, blow it on the wedding, you know, and they have this massive party and that's all good.

And then their marriages fall direct, right?

And so it's like, I'm like, sometimes I want to tell people, like, spend less money on that wedding and put it more towards marriage counseling.

Right.

I can just imagine that in premarital counseling.

By the way, before you get the wedding, we need to set aside a budget item for your counseling that you're going to need later that's going to make it go really well.

Well, you know what?

Brides magazine, you know, I tell people that counseling actually gets a really bad rap.

I tell people that my wife and I still do a lot of marriage counseling.

But, but, but that's because people unfortunately think of counseling as a fix it rather than a maintenance.

Okay?

I have a lot of friends who are medical doctors and they lament, they, they said, man, I hate it when people come to me and they've just like destroyed themselves through, you know, substance abuse, substance abuse or whatever, you know, not exercising or whatever.

And then they come and doc, give me some surgery or medicine and I'm going to fix this.

Right?

And they're like, no, prevention is the best medic.

So my wife and I, we, we go to marriage counseling not because our marriage is falling apart, but because we don't want it to fall apart.

I'm like, I hope you don't only go to a dentist when you need a root canal.

I hope you go to the dentist regularly for cleaning so that you don't need a root canal.

Right?

So that, that's the, that's the idea.

So.

But in the same way evangelism and discipleship, I feel like the western church is so like goal oriented that when you go on a mission trip and you come back, what do people ask you?

How many people did you convert?

Right.

Yeah.

Is that actually the measure that God wants out of us?

I mean, it's not.

How many people did you convert?

Just as the key to a success of a marriage is not your wedding day, right.

It is.

Do you do the lived out day to day experience with the other where you die to yourself daily?

That is the long term relationship with God.

Nominalism is the opposite of discipleship.

Nominalism is the idea that you are a Christian in name only.

So let's keep stretching this analogy.

Let's say, okay, so I married my wife, send my vows, and let's say for the rest of my life I'm just like I do nothing.

I'm just like a bump on a log, right?

And my wife is like, you're a terrible husband.

I'm like, why?

I didn't, like, commit adultery.

I didn't do anything bad.

Like, I'm just doing nothing, right?

And I would be married to her in name only.

That's what nominalism is, in name only.

And I would be the worst husband, right?

Like, and.

And she wouldn't have.

I mean, she.

She can't pin, like, bad actions on me, but she.

She can pin no actions on me.

And that's what nominalism does.

I think a lot of Christians around the world are like, yeah, I believe in God.

And then they don't follow him.

They don't serve him.

They don't pray, they don't worship.

They don't go to the church.

They don't read their Bible.

They don't do acts of service, charity.

They don't do anything.

And then you say, I'm a Christian.

I'm like, dude, Matthew 7, Jesus on the Sermon on the Mount says, there will be people who say, lord, Lord.

And I will say, I never knew you, right?

And we gotta do, you know, and people are like, oh, but unconditional love.

I'm like, no, this is a covenant.

Do you know what a covenant is?

We promise each other that we're both gonna do it, right?

So.

And that's discipleship, that you keep on living it out for Jesus every day.

And so I feel like there's a lot of focus on the unevangelized.

And there should be.

There really should be.

There's a lot of people in this world who never heard the name of Jesus.

But I also feel like there's a whole lot of people, you know, not to put be too on the nose, but a lot of people in this world who say they are Christians, and I don't know if they're going to heaven, actually.

I think that the Protestant Reformation messed this up in some sense.

Okay, and follow me here.

I know this is a little bit of a tangent, but this whole show.

Is a tangent, Alan.

This whole show is a tangent.

Look, don't.

Don't get me wrong.

I'm a Protestant.

I wouldn't want to change that allegiance, but the Protestant Reformation, in fighting against indulgences and, you know, works, righteousness or whatever, I think swung the pendulum a little too far in the opposite direction, or at least the way it's been interpreted.

Sola fide, sola gratia, sola scriptura.

You know, grace alone, faith alone, Bible alone.

Yeah, I agree with all of those.

Up until you're saved, right?

So that's my qualification.

Those things are alone up until you're saved.

But after you're saved, it is not sufficient just to rest on faith and grace.

It's not.

After you're saved by their fruit, you will know them.

By their love, you will know them.

That's what Jesus says.

Right.

And so, yeah, we do not rely on works to save us.

It is grace and faith that saves us.

But after we're saved, we better be bearing fruit and doing good works and showing love, because if we don't, that shows.

I realize this is a little bit.

It depends how people slice their theology.

But I think that shows that maybe they were never safe to begin.

In this moment of revelation, my soul was bound, my future.

It was st.

It was st.

But I found it.

I found my intuition, my purpose solely written in your story.

Oh.

You turn actually talk about reconciliation, and most of us are familiar with our reconciliation with God.

But you delve down deeper and you actually mentioned four reconciliations.

You identify four parts.

First one is the reconciliation of race, Jew and gentile, gender, husbands and wives, class, slave and free, and aged, children and parents.

And that's all found in Ephesians.

And that comprises the second greatest commandment, which is to love your neighbor.

And you mentioned the horizontal reconciliation is merely reflection of the greater vertical reconciliation of sinners to God.

The Greatest Commandment, Ephesians 2:1, 10.

Why is it so important to discuss these other reconciliations?

Because I know of some evangelicals that say, hey, we're just to be reconciled with God.

All this racial stuff, class stuff, really isn't the gospel.

It's actually a hindrance.

Just let us evangelize and tell people about Jesus.

How do you respond to that?

Race, class, age and gender are not only found in Ephesians, but also in Colossians and Galatians.

So Paul actually talks about these categories in three different epistles.

So you got to be like, okay, sit up and pay attention, right?

Because he keeps on repeating.

It's not just one time.

The other thing is that diversity is part of the beauty of the body of God.

I often tell people that this is the greatest apologetic.

Sorry, one of the greatest apologetics for Christianity, the fact that we are the most diverse and geographically widespread religion on earth.

This is why polycentrism is important.

Because unlike most other religions, which have holy city, Mecca, Varanasi, Salt Lake City, what have you, we don't.

There is no center to Christianity, no Geographic center, no ethnic majority.

All right?

We are of every country, nationality, ethnicity, continents till spread.

So the reason why this is such a great apologetic is if there really is a global God, don't you think he would be worshiped by every people on Earth rather than by just one ethnic group or one geographic area on Earth?

So most other religions are just one ethnic group or one geographical area on Earth.

That's the argument for race.

And Also in Revelation 7, 9, every tribe, tongue, nation is worshiping around the throne.

And so when you get to heaven, actually we're still going to retain our ethnicity, our nationality, our language, our culture.

Yeah, because that glorifies God.

When all this diversity is around the throne, but also the reconciliation of age, gender and social class.

I often tell people this is the difference between a church and a parachurch.

A parachurch targets one demographic.

You have Campus Crusade, which targets university students.

You have Jews for Jesus, which targets Jews, whatever.

The omf, which targets China.

Right.

So all of these parachurch organizations aim for a particular demographic.

But when you have the church, it should cover all.

It should.

You know, I, I used to talk to college students who are like part of crew or Ivy, and they're like, oh, I don't need to go to church because this is like my church.

Right?

I'm like, why?

They're like, well, because, you know, we have worship, we have prayer, we have evangelism, we have fellowship.

Like, you know, we have a sermon.

So it's church, right?

I'm like, my answer to them is church is, is not comprised of exclusively 18 to 21 year olds who are middle to upper middle class, who have an IQ of over 120, who leave after four years.

That's not church.

Church is much more diverse where older and younger generations come together, different races come together, different social classes, men and women.

And so we need to have this beautiful diversity in the body.

And okay, that's the encouragement.

Now I'm going to put the fear.

Okay, so the parable of the unmerciful servants.

Jesus says, okay, remember, he's like, the master forgave the servant his debt.

And then that servant goes and refuses to forgive the debt of another servant.

So the master hears about this and goes to the first servant and says, you wicked servant.

Right?

Like, you clearly don't understand what I did for you.

And he throws the guy in jail, weeping and gnashing of teeth, right?

So I think this is instructive for us.

The love of God.

This is the master of the first servant.

This is us, right?

He's like, I have loved you with an unconditional redeeming love that knows no bounds.

Now go and love your neighbor who's different from you.

The neighbor, as Jesus defined it in the parable of the Good Samaritan.

To the Jew, the Samaritan was like the dirty one, the other, the other person with the wrong ethnicity, the wrong religion, the wrong everything, right?

And Jesus says to the Jew, yeah, that's your neighbor.

That's the person you gotta love.

So, you know, if you were put this into modern day, you would say the parable of the.

You know, if you're talking to a Korean, it would be like the parable of the good Japanese.

We're talking to Tutsi in Rwanda, it would be the parable of the good Hutu talking to a Jew in World War II, the parable, the good Nazi talking to American, it would be a parable of the good Al Qaeda.

Okay?

So feel the force of that, right?

That is what Jesus wants us to do.

So going back to the parable of the unmerciful servant, God says, I have loved you and redeemed you and forgiven you.

Now you go reconcile with your neighbor who's different from you, different social class, different age, different ethnicity, different gender, different everything.

And we're like, we can't do it.

Then what's the lesson?

God's like, I'm not going to do it for you then, because you clearly don't understand what I just did for you.

It's like, whoa, right?

Like, that is forceful.

We even pray this in the Lord's Prayer.

I'm like, if you've ever prayed the Lord's Prayer, forgive us our trespasses as we have forgiven those who trespass against us.

Or depending on your translation, forgive us our sins as we have forgiven those who have sinned against us.

The condition is as we have forgiven others.

God do that to me.

It's the reverse golden rule kind of, right?

It's like, as we have forgiven us, so I have to stop and think, how have I forgiven others?

How have I treated others?

How have I loved others?

Because whatever measure I've used, that's the measure God's going to use for me.

So if the encouragement doesn't work, then I'm like, use the fear of it.

Okay, I know we're short on time, so I've got a few of the questions here that I want to get to that I found to be really good about this book.

You said everybody summarizes scripture differently because theology is occasional.

And I Went, I did the eyebrow raise.

Like, what?

And the points people will emphasize parallel the battles they have fought.

Now you got me now because I'm feeling this.

We talked about this in to it earlier.

You said this is true individually as well as corporately.

For example, an individual in destitute poverty will ask different questions about the goodness of God than a rich person would, and she will search the scriptures to find her answers, probably reading Job limitations, the exilic prophets in the Gospels rather than Paul.

If theology is occasional, it does get more occasional than the mission field, where the different circumstances require different answers to questions never before considered by the missionaries.

Why is it so important for us to keep this before us?

And how can theology be occasional?

We have 2,000 years, Alan.

We have 2,000 years of theology.

How is it that it can be occasional?

Occasional does not mean that it's sometimes right.

Regional means theology is a response to occasions.

So whether historical or crises or whatever's going on in a person's life or in a nation's history.

So, you know, in Deuteronomy, I think it's 25, there's this really funny verse.

If two men are fighting and the wife of the one of them comes to rescue her husband from his assailant and grabs the other man by his private parts, you shall cut off her hand.

You shall show her no mercy.

Now, I often joke, I've got that.

On a coffee mug, Alan.

I've got that for a coffee mug.

I often joke people.

I'm like, asking your favorite Bible verse.

I'm like, quote that one, right?

Anyway, keep going, keep going.

But I'm like, okay, that's part of the Mosaic Law.

Why is that in the Mosaic Law?

It's occasional.

Which means it happened.

Probably some woman went and tried to rescue her husband from his assailant and grabbed the other dude by the family jewels.

Okay, so.

Which is like the laws we have in our country.

Like some cities, you'll hear, it's like, it's illegal to be on your donkey after dark.

Exactly.

Like some laws like that, you're like, what was that?

Somebody did that.

Or do not drink the motor oil.

You know, they put the notice on it, that kind of thing.

Keep going.

Exactly.

Theology is an articulation of, you know, responding to something.

And so, you know, Moses wrote this in the Mosaic Law because this happened.

This probably happened multiple times.

And he's like, okay, well, ladies, please cut this out.

We stop this, right in the Mosaic Laws that this doesn't happen again.

Right?

So the occasional nature of theology means that we have to always stay on our toes because different people around the world ask different questions and respond to different things, which you mentioned.

I want to interject this.

I want to read this part here because I know we're short on time, but this is so good.

You said, in addition, Two thirds World theology tends to ask questions about the fate of dead ancestors, spiritual warfare, the relationship between the poor, the acceptability of polygamy and conversion to Christ in a religiously prolistic world.

In other words, can you be a messianic Muslim in the same way someone can be a messianic Jew in the west, though our questions are different.

Mode of baptism, status of the papacy, Are you pro vax, prevax, Covid, you know, mask, anti mask?

I mean, you can even put that in the church.

I know that's not necessarily a church thing, but it is in some places.

Calvinism versus Arminianism, egalitarianism versus complementarianism, denominationalism.

I gotta get all those out.

And the validity of sensationalism and dispensationalism, just to name a few.

The questions are often very different, but no less valid.

Why is it important to hear those questions?

Because I think it brings out something that we miss in our cultural viewpoint, but it actually is in the gospel.

They've got this in the Word, but we miss these questions.

Why is it important to interact with the 2/3 world in regards to these kind of things?

Put it simply, they're more biblical than us.

So, Alan, Alan.

Let me unpack this.

One time I was at a theology conference.

I'm not going to name the conference because I don't want to shame them, but I was at a Western conference.

Do it, do it, Alan.

Let's shame them.

Shame, shame.

Keep going, keep going.

And I was moderating this panel and this person presented a paper about an African view of the New Testament, which I thought was a great paper.

And some dude from the audience raises his hands and he's like, why do we need an African view of the New Testament?

Isn't that saying, like, we need an African view of gravity?

So I'm like, face, palm right.

But I.

But I was like, I was the moderator, so I was like, let someone else from the audience of the panel answer.

And somebody else raised their hand and said, because Africans actually have a more biblical worldview than we do.

First of all, they are geographically closer to Israel, okay?

I mean, we Western 21st century people think that we, like, are right next to the biblical culture.

I'm like, we're so far, like temporally, geographically, culturally, we're so far, Africans are closer geographically, culturally.

I mean they understand sacrifice better than we do.

They understand agrarian metaphors better than we.

Do spirit world for sure, for sure.

Honor, shame, honor shame part.

We miss that in our culture, community.

You know, I mean, they understand all this.

And here we are in the west saying, oh, we own theology, right?

We have the best interpretation, the most pure interpretation.

I'm like, they are way closer to the biblical culture.

They understand it better than we do just because they live closer to it.

So we need to hear those voices.

But in addition to that, also modern day things that have come up within majority world cultures are things that we never talk about in the west.

And we need to hear some of these things.

So some of these issues that you mentioned, right?

And so, and some of some of these things might actually be things the Western church are going to face later on.

So, you know, let's learn from our brothers and sisters from around the world.

Man, there are so many things.

I know we're out of time today, Alan, but man, we're just getting started.

I've got a whole two more pages of questions for you.

I mean, just based upon reading your book, there's so much you're talking about.

Have we truncated an idea of you, of mission?

How should we be listening, not just speaking to the other parts of the world?

Because one of the reasons that we called, we named our ministry Apollos Watered is that he gets converted after hearing, you know, about Jesus's baptism by John, which is a really weird conversion because that's what he starts preaching, right?

He preaches only the baptism of Jesus by John, but Priscilla and Aquila pull him aside to explain the way of God more accurately.

And we want to be able to listen, to hear the way of God more accurately from those in the world because we know in our world today everybody's talking but very few are listening.

And we want to be able to learn from our brothers and sisters and like we've learned today a ton from you, Alan, and we haven't even just get started and you've dropped some knowledge and some heat.

Some of those things in there, man, those are sound bites.

We're going to get a lot of views on that because I'm just going to isolate that out of context.

That's what we're going to do.

I'm saying it right now, we're just going to do it for the clickbait.

I'm kidding.

This is so good.

I think it is so imperative because I think you and I would agree that God is doing a work in the world.

He's already doing it.

The church is growing everywhere.

In one of the stats you even mentioned, you mentioned this.

99% were from the western world.

And I'm assuming they had skin color like mine.

Today the Evangelical church sends out over 220,000 cross cultural missionaries.

But this is the real mic drop, 78% of which are from the non western world.

And again, it's not that we have all the resources.

We didn't even get to talk about how we think we in the west have all the money.

Other cultures got money too, and even more than we do.

And I really loved how you brought that out in the book.

I just wanted to thank you for coming on the show.

How can people learn more about what you're doing, this important work and world Christianity, really expanding our minds to see the work of God so that we can join him in it, so that his kingdom might continue to expand and flourish around the world.

How can people follow you?

Oh, thanks.

Well, I have some resources.

And also a lot of these people we've mentioned here, Laman Saneh, Andrew Walls, Todd Johnson, Dana Roberts, Phil Jenkins, read their stuff.

Jehu Hand Seals.

There's so much good stuff.

Renee Padilla.

And in addition to that, listen to these podcasts like this one.

But there's, there's other ones out there.

I have an episode on the Missiology podcast and so you can listen to that as well as some other missiologists who have a lot to contribute.

But it wasn't as fun.

You can, you can just tell us it wasn't as fun.

We laughed.

This one's just so much Travis.

I just enjoy this one so much more.

Not throwing shade.

Not throwing shade.

Not trying to do that.

But these conferences also still exist.

Lausanne has ongoing conferences, so they don't just have these giant congresses every few decades.

They also have annual conferences that are specific to things like business has mission or diaspora or whatever you are looking for.

And you can join in some of these competitions as well.

And they have so many resources on their websites with disability admission, business admission.

I mean they have all these different things and written by some of the smartest kingdom people that we'll ever meet from all different cultural backgrounds to help us grow in our relationship with God and again, join him and what he's doing around the world.

Yeah.

Can I also say this?

Sorry, just go ahead.

You know, polycentrism, one of the important things about it is not just missions, but also just is to understand God better as theology.

And so, you know, I tell people, if people want to get to know me.

How do you get to know me?

Now?

The most obvious answer is to spend time with me.

But I would argue that that will only give you a slice of who I am, because I'm going to talk to you according to where we have commonalities, right?

So I said, if you ask my mother about me, she'll tell me, you know, tell you about how I was as a kid.

You ask my wife about me, and she'll tell you how I am as a partner and a lover.

You talk to my students about me, they'll tell you how I am as a teacher.

You talk to my colleagues, they might tell you about my publications.

You talk to, you know, my best friend, he'll tell you about the, you know, us goofing off, going to baseball games or whatever.

Every single person sees a different picture of who I am.

And it's not because I'm disingenuous.

It's because people interact with others on the level that's appropriate.

That's not disingenuous.

It would be highly inappropriate for me to treat my wife like my students or my mother like my wife or any of these things.

You can't.

You have to do the thing that's appropriate.

And so in the same way, all these cultures around the world all have a different perspective on God.

And I know that the Western world recoils and says, oh, that's relativism.

But I'm like, no, look, there are four gospels, right?

Four gospels have four different cultural perspectives of Jesus.

There's not just one, right?

They do not.

We don't only have one.

Super.

Some people try to conflate all four gospels.

I'm like, no, don't do that.

Because then you miss the Jewishness of Matthew, or you miss the of Luke, or you miss the Romanness of Mark, or, you know, all of these things are important, every culture.

We need African theology, we need Asian theology, we need Latin American theology, we need Western theology.

And even Western theology is not monolithic.

There's Western theologies, African theology, because we.

Have so many cultures and everything.

If you put all of them together, you start to get a picture of God.

But if you only see it one slice, you're only seeing a fraction of who our global God is.

So let's talk together and let's unify and let's learn more about this God that we love.

Amen.

And amen.

Alan, thank you for coming on.

Apollo's wandered.

You got it.

Thank you for having me.

All theology is occasional because culture keeps shifting and we're trying to figure out how to live for God as we encounter new things as we talked about.

That's why we have letters to the Romans and to the Galatians, why we have four Gospels and not one.

When you stop and think about it, it's really the way the whole Bible works.

We learn about God through His Word, yes, but what we take away from His Word, how we apply His Word, are often really brought out by the situations that we find ourselves in that we encounter all the time.

God's truth is everlasting.

Heaven and earth will pass away, but Jesus's words will never pass away.

And Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever.

God's Word doesn't change and it has everything we need to know how to live faithful, Christ centered lives.

In a world that keeps throwing more and more at us.

We are developing an understanding of what he is like and what he requires from us as we encounter all of these different things in each generation.

As Alan's book shows, Christ's mission of reconciliation brings together people of different races, genders, classes and ages.

The diversity of the body of Christ from the very beginning is a testimony to our global God.

And there is no geographic or ethnic center to Christianity because Christ is the center.

And he reconciles us to God and to one another.

And the added beauty of the body is that the very fact of our differences helps us to see God more clearly.

Brothers and sisters who are not like us can show us our blind spots, can see things that we cannot see.

Likewise, we can help them to see things too.

We help one another.

But his warning from the parables of the unjust servant and the Good Samaritan also ring true, doesn't it?

If we do not love and forgive the way that God does, why should we expect him to do so for us?

When we are unified, we show God to the world.

And right now we're not very unified.

We need to be unified, not at the exclusion of truth.

It has to be united in truth, in the truth of who God is.

And when we are unified, we gain resources for both seeing God more clearly and living in a world that is increasingly hostile to our faith.

The Church around the world, from Africa to Asia, Latin America and the Middle east are regions we have never even considered.

We need them just as much as they need us, because they are us.

We are them.

Jesus called his first disciples to love God and one another, to become like him together and then go to make more, like less.

Not the same as us though.

It's not like we get rid of all of our differences or we erase them, but it's like him in our differences as well.

See, that's what true discipleship looks like.

That's Christ's mission and it's our mission.

I hope that you found today's conversation as a really a refreshment to your soul that you might find an encouragement to see what God is doing around the world and that you might be able to join him in that.

So let this be a perspective changer and let it be a heart encourager.

I want to thank our Apollos water team for helping us to water the world.

This is Travis Michael Fleming signing off from Apollo's waters Stay watered everybody.