#222 | Is Politics Killing Evangelicalism? Pt. 2 with Pete Wehner

In the end, what, what's going to matter most in terms of healing a country would be the healing of individual lives.

And that is is really a matter, I think, of leaning into, into people in a community of faith, including leaning into the lives of people that disagree with with you and not viewing them as political projects that you have to change their views on, but getting to know them and their stories and their history and the seasons in life that they may be in.

Watering time, everybody.

It's time for Apollos Watered, a podcast to saturate your faith with the things of God so that you might saturate your world with the good news of Jesus Christ. My name is My name is Travis Michael Fleming and I am your host.

And today on our show, we're having another one of our Today is part two of my interview with Pete Wehner, who served three different presidents, including George W. Bush, as deputy director of speechwriting.

And as head of the White House.

Office of Strategic Initiatives. If you haven't listened to the last episode, you need to go back and listen there first. We are diving into the world of politics.

How do we engage in politics faithfully as Christians? It's an especially important topic as we're getting ready to head into the heart of political season here in the United States.

Our editor tells me he has been seeing attack ads during hockey broadcasts already. The last major election in the United States led to a lot of strife and downright nastiness, even among Christians.

We're talking to Pete to see how one Christian is trying to be and lead other Christians to be faithful. The realm of politics.

If you listen to the last episode, you know that we don't expect you to agree with everything that Pete said, and we aren't going to tell you how to vote.

We are seeking to live out our faith in a way that honors the mission that Jesus has given us, that puts our identity as Christians ahead of our partisanship or our need to win right now.

That remembers that God is in control even when we don't see it, that he is directing the course of the world and that being faithful to him in word and deed is far more important in the long run than scoring a political victory through compromise is today. So today we continue to navigate these difficult waters and we aren't shy about what we hit, including Donald Trump, Christian nationalism and more.

Happy listening.

So if you're a person who's not a follower of Jesus, or you are, and you're young and you're searching around, it matters a lot what the community is that you're being asked to become a part of. And I think for a lot of young people and a lot of people who aren't that young, they're deeply disenchanted and discouraged by what they're saying.

And they're saying, you know what?

This argument about faith, the fruit of the spirit that's supposed to characterize followers of Jesus, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, self control, that's just for Sunday. You guys walk out of the church, you walk out of those doors, you do whatever the hell you want and you rationalize it.

And you not only rationalize it, you justify it with the Scriptures.

You actually think that your Lord and your faith is commanding you, causing you to be these kind of instruments of division and cruelty and crudity, the assault on truth and all of the rest.

And when people see that, it doesn't matter whether NT Wright makes a really strong case on page 538 of Resurrection of the Son of God, because most people are going to a large factor in whether they're going to become people of faith or join a community of faith is are these people that I can be around, whom I respect, that I feel loved by, understood by, and that embody and exemplify a kind of integrity in their life that I want to be a part of.

And if that's not what's happening and they feel like, man, I don't want to be a part of that group, then the chances of bringing them into the church or into the faith is just a lot, lot harder.

So the irony of this, I think it's a tragic irony, is a lot of people who, as I said earlier, would absolutely say with conviction that what matters most is their faith and the evangelization of their faith to go out and make believers, you know, of all nations, that by their politics that they are actually undermining the very thing that they say they cherish the most and they're not aware of it. And in many cases, if that's pointed out to them, the response is, is to lash out and, and to get defensive.

And so that I, it's, it's just, you know, for me, the most personally painful part of this, what's happening these days is the fact that the Christian witnesses being, you know, terribly damaged in.

America, I'm not in disagreement at all. Even as I've, as you alluded to the Great Commission, we did a deep dive study.

We had Scott Sundquist on who's the president of Gordon Conwell, and he wrote a book called the Shape of Christian history, as well as a man named Alan Yeh.

Both of them are missiologists by training and how the mission of God has been accomplished in any given situation with all the different obstacles that were there. And of course, politics plays a part, especially over history. No matter what culture you find yourself, what do Christians do?

And tragically, we haven't done well when we're in the majority. It shouldn't be that way, but it's been true.

But even after the Reformation, it's 250 years after the Reformation. But he said, but it's interesting enough that the Great Commandment is always called the Great Commandment.

And that is something that has permeated and unfortunately we've really lost that love.

We've tapped into more of the acceptance of a propositional truth rather than, as you talked about when you alluded to Eugene Peterson, the way Jesus, not only do you have the message, but the methodologies that are employed. I mean, even when Jesus tells Peter, put away your sword, will die by the sword. And not that he's advocating pacifism and everything.

No, we're not talking about that, but we're saying is the means that we employ actually communicates a message. And it is, I think, damaging the Christian witness, not only here in America, but globally, as what we've done is being exported around the world.

For good or for bad, it is.

And it's up to, in some respect to the world in which we live to help recover that Christian witness in the spheres in which we find ourselves as we are trying to navigate this. Let's fast forward now past the election.

Whether or not he's even considered to be a part of it or not, in a large part of how we will be, what our playbook will be, will depend on how it plays out. But we do know that no matter what, there's going to be more fractured relationships and there's going to be probably even more increasing division.

How do we then, as you've mentioned, some of it to listen to people to have conversations to delve down deep, as you cited the inklings, which I loved, by the way. And we've had Jerry Root and Mark Noel talk about on those. Mark was just on talking about CS Lewis reception in America. We love Louis Love.

I got him right here, by the way. That's right.

There you go.

But how do we help then help our churches heal as we go about this? And I know you're not coming out as a pastor, but you're coming at it as a person who is deeply embedded in the political world.

And yet as a Christian, you see the way of Jesus being played out even in yourself. And you had to live that where you are, which is a challenge in itself.

Right.

How do we help then take that same type of way of Jesus? Let's say that you're trying to live out where you are, embody, enact.

How do we get our people to do that in the midst of the fragment world in which we find ourselves? I know it's slightly different tactic, but similar to what you've already said, but is there another thing that we can see with that?

Yeah. I do think that in the end, what, what's going to matter most in terms of healing a country would be the healing of individual lives.

And that is, is really a matter, I think, of leaning into, into people in a community of faith, including leaning into the lives of people that disagree with, with you and not viewing them as political projects that you have to change their views on, but getting to know them and their stories and their history and, and the, the seasons in life that they may be in. I can give you a couple of examples maybe that help illustrate it in my, in my own life.

We weren't intimate couples by, by any means, but we got along well.

And this couple was particularly the woman was a very ardent Republican and she was extremely happy when I was in the Bush administration, first as a deputy speechwriter, then I was director of something called the Office of Strategic Initiatives. And so I think she was so proud of me and she felt like, you know, we're on the same team. And so there was a warmth in that relationship.

Why don't we get together for lunch? We'll meet at Jay Gilbert's restaurant here in McLean, and I'm happy to buy and let's just talk.

It's not likely that I'm going to change your views and you're probably not going to change mine, but it would be a shame if a relationship that really was based on a common faith were broken over politics. And she wrote back, actually a pretty warm note, particularly given the first one that I got. She said, oh, that's really nice. Let's do that.

And so we met for lunch, and I would say 80% of it was me asking questions, not all political questions about her life, her children, things that were unfolding. But then I asked her, what do you listen to, you know, politically?

And she told me she went through the talk shows that she listened to, the things that she read. And it was very clear to me what kind of the sources of information were. And, you know, when that ended, we were in a good place.

We had kind of reconnected and taken an interest in each other's lives. And all of a sudden those political differences weren't defining. Another example is somebody in the world of conservative commentary.

And this is a person in the radio talk world. And I had written a piece in the New York Times about when Donald Trump had fired James Comey. And I was critical of him for having done that.

And this person who I've had a relationship with, wrote, was again, very angry and even made as we were. You know, when you sometimes have email exchanges, you're sort of in the second or third round, you can just feel a temperature going up.

And I could see that was happening. I think he was starting to make some sort of personality accusations or personal attacks against, against me. So I knew this was not going in a.

In a particularly good, good direction. And so I, I emailed him back and I said so. And so let me tell you why I think we're talking past each other.

Let me explain how I think you're viewing things, and let me explain how I am. And why we're. We're disconnecting. And so I wrote a couple of paragraphs, which was a good.

Is good faith effort on my part to say, here's how I think you're viewing it, and I gave voice to it, which is you're putting a premium on loyalty. You feel like Donald Trump is.

Is being waylaid every day by the mainstream media, that his success is critical to the success of a country that you love and that you view yourself. I don't think I used this analogy, but this was the upshot of it. Sort of the offensive line, protecting the quarterback, that's your job.

And for you, that kind of loyalty and staying true to the leader of your party and your movement when he's under attack, that's what you prize. You view me as a sort of traitor to that cause, somebody who knew better and is now attacking it.

And I should know better, because the people who are trying to defeat Trump are liberals and progressives, and that would hurt the causes.

I said, but from my perspective, what I'm putting a premium on is what I perceive to be intellectual integrity, which is if Barack Obama or Bill Clinton or Hillary Clinton did the same thing as Donald Trump did, would I say the same thing in response to it, or would I be dictate, Would I allow party affiliation or ideology to shape how I interpret events and how I call the balls and the strikes? And I said, for me, I've got to call out Donald Trump because he's an affront to a lot of things I believe in.

And the fact that he's a Republican doesn't change that. And so that, for me, is what's driving it. So we're placing importance on two different sets of values.

So he wrote me back and he said, I've read your note two or three times, and it was like a light bulb going on. And he said, you know, it was interesting. He said, I'm an advocate. I'm not interested in. In intellectual honesty. I view my role as being an advocate.

But we connected. And so then fast forward. This was after, I think, the Parkland shooting in Florida when this high school students were killed.

High school, by the way.

What's that?

That was my wife's high school.

Wow.

Yeah. One of her classmates was one of the coaches that was killed.

So sorry to hear that.

Watching to, watching that online was not. I mean, we were watching. We were in Chicagoland watching that break out. She's like, that's. She's looking at the news and she's like, wait, A minute.

That's my high school. And her brother was there. They both graduated from Marjory Stoneman Douglas. And it was a shock to see that played out.

I mean, this wasn't, you know, just news. This was. Her classmate that she'd gone to high school with was one of the coaches that was killed. It just was a very personal thing for our family.

But I didn't mean to. To take away.

I appreciate the interjection. I'm sorry to hear that. Of course, that would make it far more personal and vivid to her and to. And to you. Well, in this case.

So he was on the radio talking about this, and I was writing. I was driving to. To. To DC on something called the George Washington Memorial Parkway and was listening to a show. And he.

He said something to his listeners because there was a student who was. Who was leading an effort at gun control. And he said, look, go right ahead and disagree with the. The position that this student is arguing for.

He said, but just don't go after the students. He said, I have socks that are as students, so just don't personally go after them, especially in the wake of the trauma that had happened.

So when I got to the office, I emailed him and I said, I happen to be listening to your show, and I just want to say I appreciated how you were pushing back against your listeners to sort of say, it's fine to disagree with them on policy, but don't go after them personally. And he wrote me back and he said, you know, thanks for doing that. And he said, I.

I just want you to know that that voice that you heard on the radio wasn't just my voice. It was yours, too. And that was an example to me, because over the years, he and I have become friends.

I've found out about his life, some of the losses in his life. We've had discussions about faith and about a lot of other things. And so a friendship developed.

And so that kind of human relationship, those kind of human connections are ultimately the things that, if I think if we're going to have these sort of conversations, if we're going to depolarize the church, if the divisions and acrimony are going to go down, it's going to take that.

And that's what, after all, we're called to be as, you know, as followers of Jesus, I just think we have to lean into each other's lives, into each other's stories, more than we tend to ask questions rather than. Than. Than mount soap boxes, even though I've done that. A lot in our, in our interview. It's not always the right thing to do.

And I think that that's, that's it.

I, I just don't see, given the human, the conditions that we're in now, the, the moment that exists and how human beings are wired, I don't think, you know, you're not going to out shout somebody and you're not going to even out argue them. It doesn't mean that there is a place in a role for persuasion. I believe in persuasion. I have my entire life, I'm a writer.

But I don't think that just marshaling facts and arguments is, is enough.

And certainly for pastors in churches, I think it's just essential to try and create a community where the things that knit you together are the deepest and most profound things in human life. And that's not politics.

It's interesting you mentioned that. Have you heard of Alan Kreider's work, the Patient Ferment of the Early Church? Are you familiar with that book?

I've heard of the book. The author's name doesn't mean much to me.

Well, he's with Jesus now. He was an Anabaptist, but he had written a book, written this book. And I've seen a lot of people, I'm reading it through it now.

But basically we can now examine through a lot of the church fathers post the Book of Acts on how did the early church grow. And there was this kind of idea that was believed that I was taught. They had the better arguments. They were more zealous.

The miracles and those pieces which I'm sure played a part. And of course all roads led to Rome. But now we can actually see that it came down to four things that really helped grow the church.

The first one was patience. The early church was extremely patient in their conversation with one another. Jesus was never in a hurry. They were patient.

It wasn't a Roman, Greco Roman virtue. They were patient in their dealings, patient in their disagreements. That's one, two was this French sociological word.

And you and I both know James Davison Hunter and he's coming on the show in April to discuss his new book.

He's great.

He is fascinating guy.

And he had said, he talks about habitus, that habit, you know, that French sociological word where every single sphere, part of their life was formed by the Christian habit. And even in how they practice hospitality, they serve the poor.

And I'm a huge Leslie Newbiggin fan and one of the things that we've talked about a lot on the show is earning the right to be heard requires listening, as you've already talked about a lot.

And that's one of the reasons we picked Apollos as our namesake, because Apollos, he gets converted after hearing a sermon on Jesus being baptized by John the Baptist, because that's what he preaches. And he goes and preaches, but Priscilla and Aquila hear him one place, and they're like, this guy's awesome, but he doesn't know anything.

So they pull him alongside and he listens to them so that he could do it more accurately.

And so we wanted to be a listening ministry, but we've noticed that in our current cultural moment, the church has kind of separated the proclamation from the demonstration aspect of it. And we focused on the proclamation thinking that it has to be the argumentation.

But the demonstration through the service, the sacrifice, the listening and the suffering earns the right to be heard. And that's, of course, as you alluded to, even with Tim Keller.

Not that I'm trying to teach you anything like that, but that's just one of the values that we have. And I think as a church, we have to recover that, that we will endure many tribulations.

We are to endure good suffering as a soldier of Christ Jesus in the Middle east. And even Jesus, if they persecuted me, they're going to persecute you.

And unfortunately, I think what we've talked about and you've alluded to is that we cite the Bible and we think that's good enough, not understanding that the devil himself believes that God is one and the demons tremble and he quotes the Bible to Jesus, for crying out loud.

And so we have to make sure that we are interpreting it rightly in a living it accordingly and making sure we're doing it in the proclamation and in the demonstration. And I think we've erred on the proclamation at the cost of the demonstration. And that'll preach, right? That'll preach.

That's very, very good and very elegantly said. That's the proclamation demonstration frame is. Is a really helpful one.

Rodney Stark wrote a book that echoed that where I think the phrase that he used was communal compassion or communal care. And he went through, you know, the. This is. Sounds like it's very much the same thing.

But how did this group, small messianic movement of several dozen people grow into the dominant faith in the entire Western world in a matter of two centuries? And it was not through political power, wasn't through cultural power either.

It was through the demonstrations of love, caring for the widow the orphan, the children, the people in need really leaning in when people were suffering from medical conditions, treating women as, you know, something better than third class citizens because of the patriarchal, misogynistic culture that existed at that time. So those are really the things, as you say, the demonstration of the Christian witness, that's ultimately what wins the hearts of people.

The proclamation. I mean there's obviously a place for proclamation, but faith is not a series of mathematical equations and it's not in it. The intellect matters.

As I said earlier, the intellectual journey was important to me. But that can only get you so far. And in the end, reason doesn't get you to faith. Faith isn't reason.

It doesn't mean it's irrational, but it means it's a trans rational.

And for whatever reason, in my reading of the scriptures and my understanding of the Christian faith, that there is something about faith that is, you know, Jesus saying to Thomas, blessed are those who haven't seen and believed. There's something more blessed about not seeing and believing. The act of faith that gets people to, to a place.

And so you're not going to convince people through mathematical formulations or through just proclamations. You have to do it. You have to speak the language that, that others speak and that, and that's the language of love and compassion and empathy.

And it's interesting you've alluded to that. We talk about these.

Our job is to make, to show God is great and we talk about the great commandment which should express itself in the Great Commission, but it's then lived out in the great community. Yeah, it's nice that John 17 where Jesus said I pray they may be one, as we are one. So the world may know that you sent me.

There's something that happens when the barriers are broken. And in the last church I served in, we had a lot of both people on the left and the right.

And it, like you said, it's not always down on the argument. Sometimes it was because of the, the history their parent was in that party. That's what they're familiar with, that's their attachment.

It didn't always come down to just straight political issues. For them it was a familial thing.

Like my parents were this or this is what we noticed and over time and they may not be familiar with those argumentations. And so what we would do is we would try to preach the truth.

And, and I love how you said this earlier and this is why I'm a big fan of like George Yancey.

I don't Know if you've ever read his work at Baylor, he wrote One Faith no Longer and he was looking at blue and red America and basically their premises are very different in what they have as their foundation. But his point was, and I love this about him is he calls balls and strikes.

If he sees it on the left, he calls it on the left, he sees it on the right, he calls it on the right. And he's, he's a Christian too, so he's try and call. What does the word of God say? How do we interpret this?

What part of the word of God has gotten that attention to the exclusion of the other when they should be held together and not contradictory?

Right.

Easy part to do and especially of our society. Now I am curious as you're going about this and you see this played out, of course you're in the D.C.

area, you're right in the heartbeat of all of these different things.

But as our culture has become much more diverse and we see the nations that are here, God bringing the nations, in my opinion is for one of two reasons. One, we see that many of them coming are Christians and they're actually renewing many churches.

But we also see there's an opportunity to reach and yet we see that the political part can get in the way of that witness as we're interacting and trying to cross these borders. Do you have any thoughts on that? Just politically, what does our stance do?

I mean, you've already mentioned the public nature of witness, but even in the cross cultural ethnic separations that we see, how do we then help cross those borders and help other people that are of our own ethnic persuasion to see that the mission actually exceeds that, the political difference that's there. You have any thoughts on that?

I know that's not in your wheelhouse per se, you're not a missiologist, but I'm just curious if you had any thoughts on that.

Yeah, it's an, it's, it's a nice way to think about it. And I'm not sure that. Well, I'm sure they're not particularly profound. I don't know how, how helpful they are.

What resonated with me is one is I think that that that notion of breaking down the barriers is such a profound one. That really was what Jesus was doing. And Paul uses the language of breaking down the barriers, the cultural barriers and so forth.

That's one of the reasons why to me, the whole concept of Christian nationalism, at least in its more toxic form, is such an anathema to Christianity and certainly New Testament Christianity, because that was really what Jesus was pushing against, was this notion of. Of nationalism and identification through, you know, through culture or through other. Through other things.

And it was the notion of breaking down the dividing walls among us.

So, you know, when I think about Christian nationals, my responses, you could hardly think of a figure that would be more against Christian nationalism than Jesus, you know, based on his. On his ministry. But there's so much to learn from people of different cultures and experiences.

You know, we all come at things with a certain angle of vision, and there's just no way that we have the capacity to see truth and reality and events in. In their full scope. And so what you need is you. You need to be in community and conversations with people who see things different than you.

And it may be political, it may be cultural, it may be ethnic or something else, but hopefully a lot of listeners on your.

On your show could be able to mention experiences that they've had where they've talked to somebody with a different culture, different, really a profoundly different life experience, begin to talk about how they see certain things, and then you begin both to understand why they see the world the way they do, given their experiences. And then you will hopefully also see, refine and recalibrate maybe your own views in light of what you. What you learn. So that notion of.

Of being in the midst of people of different nations, nationalities, ethnicities and cultures, I think is a. Can be a profound one.

It's not an easy one. And as you alluded to in that, keeping those relationships listening.

But you said something else I was a little bit curious about, because Christian nationalism is obviously in the news.

I actually went and I purchased the text on Christian nationalism because I wanted to make sure that I was understanding exactly what was being communicated. And the argumentation was. I don't know if you've read that book that the. The little manifesto. I've got it even here. It's a. It's.

It's kind of a scary cover, quite honestly. Just reminds me too much of Nazi Germany.

And just looking at it, not to bring that in too further, but it's just very stark with a black cover and a red cross right in the middle of it. And in the book, they said every Christian is a Christian nationalist in that you are to help for the flourishing of society in every sphere.

You are to help restrain the evil and to help the good.

They cite all of the different documentation at the foundation of the thirteen colonies and how they had Judeo Christian faiths codified, of course, before they became the actual original, you know, states. How do we help people to see and respond to that in the midst of the society? Because according to the great de Churching, if I, if I'm. I'm.

I hate to pull stats out of the, the nowhere. They said 20% of evangelicals think that we should be a Christian nation. How do we respond to that?

How do we live that out and help them to see the, the error in that? I mean, you've talked about it already a little bit, but can you just elaborate a little bit further?

Yeah. The one thing I'd say is I'd want to be a little, little careful potentially and have maybe a caveat.

When these polls about Christian nationalism are used. I think there are more toxic and less toxic forms of Christian nationalism. I think for some people it's almost a synonym for patriotism.

It's love of country.

And even if people say, look, you want the country to be more Christian or a Christian country, I think for a lot of people, what they are thinking about is that there's a Jewish and Christian moral ethic that, that existed and was certainly influential in the founding of the country. They believe it's a correct moral ethic, that it's objectively true. And so they want the country and the institutions of the country to reflect that.

That's not necessarily problematic. Depending on how it plays out, then you have the more toxic form of Christian nationalism, which is almost theocracy.

And you have, I think, the assault on truth and history that you see from David Barton, for example, you know, when the, the Jefferson lies, sort of taking Jefferson and turning him into some kind of orthodox Christian. And that I think is problematic and, and even dangerous.

And the new speaker of the House, Mike Johnson, is very much shaped by that, that view, you know, in terms of what you do about it. I mean, this is a true, I think in politics in general and theology in general, and there are some people that you're just not going to convince.

They're zealous, they're energized, and they're on a mission and they're not particularly open to hearing other points of view and in fact may even convince themselves of the different points of view or are evil being driven by sort of satanic forces, that this is children of light, children of darkness, and they believe that they're on the right side. There's absolute certitude, they're on the side of God. The other people are enemies of God and they have to prevail.

Now, when you're dealing with that kind of mindset, there's not a lot that you can say, you know, to win people over. You're probably going to, you know, want to save, save your breath.

And if you engage in a debate with somebody like that and they're a friend, then it's going to strain the friendship. You're probably going to spend a lot of time trying to repair the friendship.

So you have to kind of have discernment in the person that you're, that, that you're, that you're dealing with. Assuming you're, you're dealing with people who are, who are reachable.

I think what one way to potentially do it is a really kind of serious exposition on the nature of Christ and Christianity in the New Testament within that arena. And you know, presumably there are enough Christians who really do to be faithful. We all struggle, we all fall, we all see things imperfectly.

But I do think that if, if it can be framed, which is we want to be more devoted and faithful followers of Christ. So let's come to this with as much theological and intellectual integrity as we can to sort of sort through.

Let's try and figure out what the Bible is saying first of all and then once we figure that out, how our views and this moment can align better with, with that. So I think it has to be non threatening. It needs to be framed as, come, let us reason together, come, let us learn together.

We all bring baggage, we all bring presuppositions. Let's see what's, what's really being said.

And if that can be established, I think then there's some room to be able to pull people in, to see the truth and the reality of things.

Now obviously, if, if you were a Christian nationalist and you heard me say what I just said, they say amen brother, and they think I'm the person that needs to be, you know, changed, that maybe that they can invest in my life and maybe they can say, let's go through and, and ascertain what the Bible says. And then maybe Pete, because he ostensibly wants to be a follower of Jesus, will shift his views to be more, you know, more like mine.

So we all have to struggle with that. We think we have the truth. That's the reason we hold the certain views that we do. So there really does have to be a kind of epistemic humility.

And it's a funny thing, I don't know if you've noticed this, but you know, the very people, Calvinists, people in the Reformed tradition who should, who would talk about total Depravity and the all encompassing effects of sin, including the noetic effects of sin, the effects of sin on the mind and the intellect. They would absolutely say amen to that.

And yet in everyday life and their own approach, I think that is often missing, that is, there's the assumption that not only is the Bible inerrant, but my interpretation of the Bible is inerrant because the Bible is very, very clear.

And in fact, I think the Bible is often confusing and there are contradictory theologies depending on what moments that you're looking at and, and so forth. But it's the, it's the absolute certitude that I think gets in the way of, of a lot of us, you know, in the Christian faith.

So we have to be open to the knowledge, which is I suppose its own avenue to explore theologically, to the notion that our intellect and our field of vision are flawed, you know, are flawed too. We have to be open back to Lewis and Barfield, to learning from each other.

Well, as you said, and I mean, you're almost quoting Paul says, we know empowered and we prophesy, right? And, and there is that part, of course that's there. We don't know everything.

I mean, we do believe the truth of who Jesus is, we do know that, but every aspect of doctrine and how that plays out and how it affects every single person we know with what we have, Scripture.

But you and I both know that as you mature over time, certain doctrines, depending upon the experience that you've gone through, becomes a lot deeper and your view is challenged and you are forced to go even further down into the very person of Christ. I think of again, like you mentioned Keller, and I remember him saying one time he goes, 10 years ago I was an idiot.

And he said, 10 years before that I thought I was an idiot. He goes, you know, that means now that me 10 years from now is going to think I'm an idiot now.

That's exactly right.

Mean, you know, it's, it's interesting, you just ask yourself, like if you or I were women who lived in the 14th century in a different continent, would we interpret the Bible differently? Well, of course we would. Back to some of the topics we talked about, which is, we're all shaped by these experiences.

They were shaped by their culture and it was deformed and it led them to an immoral position. Thankfully, we're not there anymore. But, you know, therefore, but for the grace of God go I. So we can all look back and say, yeah, I can see how.

How culture and a lot of different things went in to lead people to believe false things, but somehow when we think about ourselves in this moment, we're exempt from. Yeah, exactly. We just think, well, now we've arrived at the truth and we see everything the way it is.

And, you know, 100 years from now and 500 years from now, people are going to look back at us and they're going to say, how on earth could they have believed this? And, you know, we're blind to it, but that's. That's part of the human story. So.

And part of the human story is enlightened enlightenment, moral enlightenment, intellectual enlightenment to try and. Try and learn and to perceive truth and perceive God in. In better and clear ways as we're.

Coming near to the end of our time. I'm. And thank you so much, by the way, for being so generous.

I enjoy it. Thanks.

I love this conversation.

I mean, I'm sure we could talk all day because there's so many other questions that I have. But in the sphere that you're in as a Christian, what do you feel that God's calling is for you, where you're at right now?

Yeah, you know, it's. It's a good question. I've. I've never been somebody who felt a lot of assurance on what. What my calling was in a narrow sense, you know, called in a.

In a particular profession or a particular job. I just never really thought that way. And I.

And I've at least never received messages that to me were anything more than potentially intuitions or desires, human desires that I have. So when I think about my calling, it's pretty simple.

I just try and think about sort of a life of integrity, a moral integrity, intellectual integrity. Be faithful, treat people well, particularly people over whom you have power, and just be a witness there.

I think, professionally speaking, you know, I'm in a different position now than I was when I was working in. In the White House. I write. I write about politics, I write about culture, but I also write about faith.

And not just politics and faith, but really reflections and meditations on Jesus. So I've done, you know, a dozen or more for the New York Times.

I've done some for the Atlantic, and then for the Atlantic, I've also done profiles of people of faith who are friends of mine, people I admire. Gary Haugen and IJ International Justice Mission, Francis Collins, Tim Keller, Philip Yancey, Mike Gerson and Russell Moore and others.

So I would say that is probably the most.

I feel like that's the most meaningful writing that I do, which is the reflections on, on faith, I think, because faith is pretty core to who I am and who I've been.

And it's also a way for me often in my writing, I would say, to kind of work through my own questions and my own thoughts and sometimes bring readers along with, with me. But. So I, I feel like it's a real privilege to be able to write on the things that I can and to have the platform so that, that, that I have.

But I don't know if, if I feel like it's, it's, it's a calling. I, I try and be faithful given the position that, that I, that I have.

But you know, in the end, as, as David Brooks said, the things that matter are the eulogy virtues. Those are the ones that. The resume virtues are nice, but they just aren't as meaningful. And so that's kind of how I think about it.

I, I'm not even sure that this right way to think about it. It's just the way that, that I am, the way that I'm. The way that I'm. I'm hardwired and.

And so I've just never had a really strong sense that God is calling me in this position work wise. But I've been unbelievably fortunate in the work that I've been able to do.

That's a good testimony though.

I think for many people, they don't feel that call per se on their life, but they do want to know how do they glorify God in their vocation where they're at? And that seems like you're. What you're doing. I'm trying to treat people fairly. I'm trying to tend the truth.

I love the fact that you mentioned to have this intellectual integrity or moral integrity and intellectual integrity is something that, honestly, until you said that.

Not that I, I hadn't, I hadn't thought of that, but just those terminology, that term, that category, the framing that you've used, I find to be very helpful as we're finishing up our time together today. What is a water bottle that we can give our people to nourish their, to be nourished on in this week and during this season? Because we are entering.

I mean, we're in the political season right now, it's getting ready to ramp up even further. And many people are still weary from the last one, especially with COVID And they're wondering, what do we do? How do we maintain this?

How do we keep our faith invigorated.

The way that it needs to be?

What's something that we can give to our people so that they can nourish on throughout the week?

Yeah, it's really good questions, good question to ask people.

You know, I'm probably partial, maybe more partial than I should be to books, but books have shaped me, you know, shaped my life a lot and shaped my thinking a lot and my theology a lot. There's a new book that just came out from a good friend of mine, David Brooks, who's a columnist at the New York Times called How to Know a Person.

The Art of Seeing Others Deeply and Being Deeply Seen. And it's, it's really, it's a wonderful book.

David is a great, great writer and it's extremely thoughtful and he's one of the great synthesizers in American life today in terms of his ability to translate experts in different fields, including the fields of sociology and psychology. And you know, David's on his own journey.

He's gone as a person who was Jewish faith and has embraced Christianity over the last several years, while still I think actually deepening his, his Jewish attachments as well.

But David is a great voice and I, I think he's an important voice in this moment because this notion of seeing others deeply and being deeply seen, we've obviously talked a lot about that in this conversation and that's, that's a human element of, of of life and that always matters. And when people feel that they are seen, it's, it's a life giving thing. And, and that book, and the spirit of that book is how to do that.

And I think it's, it's also a very good and maybe even a central thing in terms of the, this political moment that we're in as, as well. So I'd say that's a, that's for me and probably for others of your listeners, that may be a pretty good water bottle.

David's coming on the show, so I'll have to tell him that you recommended his book.

Oh, he's a. Oh, David is a great, great guy. Really a tremendous amount of fondness for him and I'm glad, glad you're going to have him on the, on the show.

Yeah, I mean, maybe he'll promote your book. Maybe that's how It'll work.

I don't. I don't have a new one, so just do me a favor and promote his book.

You have any new stuff coming out, by the way? Can people. How can people keep up with what you're doing?

I mean, do you have something in the works, or is it all through Times in the Atlantic going forward? Right now?

Right. Right now, it's the Times, the Atlantic. I wrote a recent essay for Plow magazine, Christian magazine, on why does God allow the innocent to suffer.

It was a reflection on Dostoevsky's the Brothers K Off, which actually, I'm in a book club with David, and we read that. Read three chapters together on that topic. So, you know, really, for the.

I'd say for the next year, it's going to be focus on essay writing, and some of it will be faith, but it'll be politics, too. I'm of the view that. That this is a really key, central moment in the life of our country. And I think that an awful lot's at stake.

And I just want to feel like, as the saying goes, that I left everything on the field in this moment. So between now and next year, end of next year, I'll hopefully be able to, you know, to say my piece and to make the arguments as best I can. And.

And then I'll probably take a deep breath and. And see what. What may. May come up.

But in terms of following me, people can Google my name and the Atlantic and the New York Times, and, you know, they'll. They'd be able to read some of. Most of what I'm writing.

Well, I look forward to reading it. I want to thank you again for being so generous with your time, and thanks for coming on the show.

It was great being with you. I enjoyed the conversation and thanks for your ministry and the life you're leading.

Politics is messy.

We all know this because people are messy and because we live in a time where God has been put on the back burner at best, for a great many people, the stakes have never seemed higher. Perhaps that's true. Pete believes we are at something of an inflection point as a society, and he may be right.

But there is actually far more at stake than the shape of the American political landscape or even its geopolitical consequences around the world. The eternal destiny of many is at stake.

When Christians don't act like Christians, when we don't do politics, as Christians, we sully the name of Christ. We alienate people from him. That doesn't mean we have to agree with what people say and do.

It doesn't mean that Christians won't sometimes disagree with one another. Sometimes we have to proclaim the truth to power loudly. Not everyone will agree.

Sometimes we will be mocked and maybe even persecuted for being faithful. But the way that we do it matters. It matters to our witness.

We cannot win someone to Christ if they do not feel that we are living out our own self proclaimed ideals. We do have to show people that we care. That we follow a Jesus who cares. Over and over.

Pete's illustrations showed that when he or others sat down to talk, to really talk and understand not seeing people as projects, but as people, things got better. That doesn't mean everyone, even Christians, will agree, but it's a start. Some aspects of politics and policy are very complicated.

Most of us would rather the solutions were simple. This is true of people on the left and on the right. And as Christians we have an opportunity to show the country, the world, a better way.

That we don't have to play the same kind of political power games that everyone else plays. That we don't have to jettison our faith to score political points. Our proclamation and our demonstration need to match up.

That's what Jesus calls us to. In the near term, especially in the post Christian West.

That may well mean things don't go our way politically, but it doesn't mean that we need to be silent or that we need to fear. God is on his throne and in the end we know who wins. We're to be faithful to Him.

Join us next week as I'm talking to Albert Moeller who has a completely different look than what Pete Wehner gave us today. It is sure to be a very interesting conversation. I want to thank our Apollos water team for helping us to water the world.

This is Travis Michael Fleming signing off from Apollo's Water.

Stay watered everybody.