#226 | The Church Between Temple & Mosque | Dan Strange

At the end of the day, we are created, finite, limited cultural beings located to a particular place where God has called us. And we can't bypass that. We're not a cultural beings. We're always embodied in a particular time and place.

And even though there is only one gospel and one gospel message, this is where the word, I suppose, contextualization, comes in.

It's watering time, everybody.

It's time for Apollo's Watered, a podcast to saturate your faith with the things of God so that you might saturate your world with the good news of Jesus Christ. My name is Travis Michael Fleming, and.

I am your host.

And today on our show, we're having another one of our deep conversations. There is one gospel, one gospel. We all agree with that. I know you believe that.

You believe that Jesus is the Christ, and yet you've got a lot of questions. You want to know why a lot of these things aren't taking root in your churches that you see going on right now.

And you're seeing everything that we are with people dropping out left and right.

And I know that you care about the word of God, you care about the people of God, and you were just trying to keep afloat and trying to keep your own sanity. That's why we're here for you. That's why we are here.

We want to be able to help you clear away the fog, to be able to see the truth of who God is, so that you can minister where you are in a greater, more impactful, faithful, and fruitful way. And that's why today we have as a special guest on our show, Dr. Dan Strange. Now, it is not Dr. Strange from the Marvel Cinematic Universe.

You might be familiar with his name because we had Dan on a year ago, last May, where we talked about his pretty phenomenal book. It's a short book, easy read, great for people, called Making Faith Magnetic.

It's a book that you need to get and have in your library simply because it helps you to see how people are thinking in the world and helps you to also see the bridges that we can build to help connect people to the reality of who Jesus is, okay? In a pretty cool, commonsensical, logical, conversational, organic way.

So I really like the book, but today going to be talking about somebody else entirely. It's a guy by the name of J.H. bavink. Now, unless you're really into obscure Dutch theologians, you're not really going to know who this guy is.

And there are actually two Bavinks you need to learn about Guy named Herven Bavink, who is this amazing systematic theologian in the 20th century out of the Netherlands whose works now are just being translated into English. And I'm seeing so many different theological readers go cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs over these guys. And then there's J.H.

bavinck, who is his lesser known nephew, but he's a missiologist. And you know, if you listen to our show, that we love missiology.

As a matter of fact, I believe that missiology is the future because it draws on so many different sciences. It draws on the word of God, it draws on theology, it draws on sociology. It draws.

Basically, it's asking the question, how do we accomplish the mission of God where we are? So I love the topic, the subject of missiology, really. That's what our show is about.

We want to be able to help you and your church communicate and fulfill the mission of God faithfully and fruitfully where you are. That's what we want to do. That's what we really get into. We talk about the mission of God all the time.

And that's why I wanted to have Dan on the show to talk to you about this book that J.H. bhavink had written a long time ago called the Church Between Temple and Mosque. And here's why.

Chances are you have people in your community or your severe influence that are from a different religion.

If we've seen anything over the past few years is that God is moving the nations around and we are now encountering people that look and sound different than us. I'm amazed at how many people that were in my church that never saw the nations. They might have come from one ethnic background.

Let's say that they were Caucasian. And they never saw that there were all these Iraqis in the community till we started talking about this stuff in church.

And suddenly they're like, oh my gosh, I see them in the grocery store all the time. What? You just didn't have the eyes to see.

And I want you to have the eyes to see and then the lips to talk and share and just the heart to build a relationship. Because God is doing a work and I want you to be part of it.

And we want to equip you in that because we know that you're busy, that you can't possibly take in all the information that's out there. That's why we got you. We are here for you, to help equip you to do the mission of God where you are. So we're going to be talking about J.H. bavink.

And it's pretty practical for everybody that's out there. So you might not see yourself as a theologian or missiologist. That is okay. You're going to love this conversation. Dan has just a heart for Jesus.

He wants to see the kingdom of God grow. He wants to see you grow in your relationship with Jesus. He wants to see you have a faithful and fruitful ministry.

He wants to see you make an impact and he wants to use the gifts and talents that God has given him to help you where you are, fulfill the mission of God. So without further ado, let's get to my fast paced and Fun conversation with Dr. Dan Strange. Happy listening, Dan Strange.

Welcome back to Apollo's Watered.

Great to be back. Redux. I'm back.

You know the drill.

And are you ready for the fast five?

Yes, yes, I think so.

Okay, here we go.

Favorite binging TV show.

Favorite.

Oh, I've, I've watched Billions and I, I feel very, I quite this. The kind of. It's just finished with Paul, Paul Giamatti. It's been over seven series and I've, I've followed it all the way through.

I don't normally do that, but I, I have really enjoyed it.

Okay, number two, how about this one Christian writer who has influenced you the most and why?

Oh well, that probably will be JH Bavink. I think increasingly on mission.

I mean we'll be talking about him today, but I love his kind of, it's not just what he writes, it's the way he writes and he seemed like an incredibly godly person and just yeah, the whole package. So yeah. J.H. bavink. Yep.

Okay, here we go. Number three then. Favorite thing about coming to America?

Oh, the food. The hospitality industry in general. I would say your, your customer service. I mean it, I, I find it or awe inspiring and I know people are doing it.

We don't have a tip system here and I know people are doing it for tips, but I don't mind. I just like people being nice to me.

Sometimes you get the impression in, in the UK that you know, you go into a place and it's almost, you know, why would you want to be here? Or what are you doing here? Whereas the warmth of hospitality, even though I know it's for money.

And I think I, I think my last trip I just had a burger every single night. So burgers and good hospitality. Thank you.

Okay, how about this one then? How about the best British food that you think all Americans should try?

Oh wow. The best British. Oh I. I would say fish and chips and. And property. Fish and chips and tea. Yeah, definitely.

What do you mean a proper tea? How does that. What do you mean, proper tea?

Well, I think one. As in a cup of tea. As in. I don't know whether you guys really get tea properly. Yeah, fish and. Good old traditional fish and chips and. And a good.

Good tea. That. That. That's the best we have to offer, I think.

Does the fish and chips. Is it just standard across the board, or does everyone do their little.

Their. Everyone. No, no, no. Everyone has their. We. We've moved to the north of the country now, and they do. They do that. Their own way of doing things. So.

Yeah. Yes, it's very. Yeah. Fish and chips.

Okay.

All right, here we go. Number five. What's your favorite thing about being British? Oh.

Oh, probably. Probably The. The sense of humor. This has been over with American colleagues over the years when I was teaching. It's taken a while for them to get to.

For there to be a kind of a. A meeting of minds when it comes to humor. So I think the kind of. The ironic, understated, sarcastic cynicism, I quite like that.

I know Americans sometimes find that very difficult, but. Yeah, that kind of understated humor.

Well, I was talking to some Canadian friends and they said the same thing. They just don't get the sarcasm. The Canadian sarcasm.

I think there's a little bit of that within.

In British humor, too.

Oh, definitely, Definitely. Definitely.

Although it's interesting, I still think there are lots of Americans who like British comedy and vice versa, but I think it takes a bit of getting used to.

When I saw the British Office, like, I'd seen the American Office before I saw the British Office. And so when I watched the British.

Office, it was so awkward.

Like, it was painful. I was like, oh, no, it's interesting.

I've started watching the new Frasier, and it's not as good as the old, but I still think you can do comedy. Well, you guys, you can.

Okay, well, on that note, let's transition.

We have been talking about the last.

Few times we've been together.

Actually, the last time we were together, we were talking about your book Magnetic Points, and we've been talking about evangelism, but I want to talk more generally about Mission. And we're going to get into JH Bavink here in just a moment, but we know that Jesus calls us to be on mission with him. John 17.

It's not an extra thing. It's actually the essence of who we are as Jesus said, as the Father sent me, so I send you. So we're sent to fulfill his mission.

But I find that most Christians that I interact with are very confused on that mission. What is that mission and why is it so important?

Yeah, so I mean. I mean, I talk about two things. Well, a few things to say. The first would be the. The cultural mandate of Genesis 1 and 2 to.

To have dominion, to fill and subdue the earth to the glory of God. I don't think that has ever been abrogated. I think it's restated in the Great Commission of Matthew 28. Go and make disciples of all nations.

So it's a kind of the cultural mandate, Mark 2, but recognizing the need for conversion, that people need to turn from idols to the living God, all for the glory of God.

So I think in terms of my kind of reformed, I suppose, Baptistic way of understanding it, if mission has three elements, historically, ultimately we do everything for the glory of God. But I suppose you might say the. The building up of the church and the conversion of unbelievers. Those three elements.

Maybe part of the problem is that we've only concentrated on one of those when actually we need to be doing all three at the same time. I think that's what we'll be coming to when we talk about this later on today. You know, they're not three separate missions.

That's one mission to do evangelism, to do apologetics, to call people to Christ, to disciple people, help them grow up in the Lord, to mature, all for the glory of God. I think that's the kind of. That's the mission that I want to be involved with. And I think he's biblically mandated.

So, yeah, Great Commission, cultural mandate, Great Commission. And that those kinds of three strands of the glorification of God, the conversion of the unbeliever and the building up of the believer.

So wait a minute, you said three.

And I, I missed.

There's like three or four sets of three there.

So.

So there's a cultural mandate. Great Commission.

Culture mandate and Great Commission, I'd say, are two kind of, you know, the Genesis 1 and 2 and the Matthew 28. I think that that's a kind of our, Our. The mission that we've been given.

I think, though, that again, another way of putting it would be everything is to glorify God in terms of Sony Deo Gloria, one of the great, you know, slogans of the Reformation. But I think in terms of what we mean by mission, in terms of the, The.

The building up of the discipleship and evangelism, I suppose, then, so, and then the other thing, I mean, the other, the only other thing I'd say is again, seeing mission as both. Well, I, I mean, this goes back to the discussion of, you know, what is the gospel.

And I think, you know, the Kevin DeYoung, Greg Gilbert thing is quite helpful here. There's a, a zoom focus and a wide angle lens.

So the zoom focus being, you know, the importance of people coming to know Jesus as their personal savior. I still think that's absolutely crucial.

But the wide angle lens, that God is doing something that's cosmic in its scope, creation for redemption, consummation. They're not two gospels. They're one gospel. There's, there's, there's one mission at that point.

So there's kind of a narrow focus and there's a wide, narrow focus in terms of individuals, but there's a cosmic focus. The, the, the, the, the renewal of all creation.

And that has all kinds of implications for what we think about work, what we think about, you know, engagement in society. So that bigger theme there of the kingdom of God, I think is crucial.

Huge. I am in complete agreement with you. It is absolutely huge.

All right, though, but how does that mission, like we've talked about this generally, but how does that differ place to place? Because sometimes we think, well, there's a, there's a one size fits all mission. Yeah, but its expression might be different.

So how does that differ in place to place?

Yeah, well, I think it's a, I mean, it's. Travis is theological.

You know, we, at the end of the day, we are created, finite, limited cultural beings located to a particular place where God has called us and that, and we can't bypass that. We're not a cultural beings. We're always embodied in a particular time and place.

And even though there is only one gospel and one gospel message, this is where the word, I suppose, contextualization comes in, that we, but we're, we're kind of limited by our own locatedness. I mean, I think I probably said this in the last program, but, you know, in 1 Corinthians 1, we do preach Christ crucified.

But that message is not a kind of a generic platonic 30,000ft message. Because in 1 Corinthians 1, Paul still contextualizes that for two sets of ethnic groups, Jews who look for power and Greeks who look for wisdom.

Jews are not Greeks, Greeks are not Jews, and we still preach Christ crucified, which is a stumbling block. But to those who have been saved. Christ is the power.

What Jews are looking for, Christ is wisdom, what Greeks are looking for in precisely the opposite way that those things would be brought about. But Paul still does that work. You know, in Acts 17, he wanders around the objects of worship.

So I think it's just a recognition of our createdness, that mission needs to be contextualized in different cultures at different times. Now, you can go as micro and macro as you want to. You know, you could say the gospel needs to be contextualized for American culture.

But of course, you know, there's all this, you know, what does it mean for each state? What does it mean for each town? What does it mean for each neighborhood? What does it mean for each. Of course, you can go. Or you can go more macro.

What does it mean for west versus South? Or what does it mean for humanity? So you're always kind of making generalizations or being more specific.

But the idea that we need to understand this and this is. This is how we get traction with people is crucial. So I think that's why mission in that sense is localized. We need to do the hard work.

Theological truths, but what does that mean? That's why we do the hard work in understanding where we are, where God has put us. And that's crucial as well. So it's those two things together.

I think, knowing this that we have to contextualize the gospel. That means that we also have to be able to be in proximity to people to contextualize with them. I mean, that's assumed in the middle of all that.

And you and I were chatting before this about what you called pre. Pre evangelism.

How do we get into proximity to build relationships with these people that are different than us simply because oftentimes our nature says we want to be able to congregate with people who look like us, believe like us. There's safety that's there. We're wired to find who we belong to. And to step out of that takes a very.

It's very difficult to do, number one, because you have to mentally and emotionally do it.

And then number two, we're already so busy that the idea of doing one more thing, especially something that's as awkward and difficult, it's not easy to do. How do we go about finding and creating the space to build these relationships with people?

Well, the first thing I think is seeing, like. I think maybe we. We often see evangelism as being part of our lives.

And our lives are like a pie chart where we have kind of church work and Evangelism is part of that. It's a kind of a sliver of the pie chart, and it's very compartmentalized. Whereas I don't think life's like that. Our lives are not like a pie chart.

They're more like a flow diagram where everything links into everything else.

So I think, as I said to you beforehand, what has been a real revelation for me, it's a very simple thing, is that this idea that our evangelism flows from our discipleship, that is to say, if I know what it means for me to be a Christian and for what, what Christ means for me in any particular area of life and the implications for that, then when I'm in the same culture as someone else who isn't a Christian, there's a starting point. Because we're in the same culture, we struggle with the same issues.

And if I know how this applies to my life, then I'll be able to talk about how it applies to someone else rather than seeing people as a project or just completely different. Now, of course, there is a fundamental difference between a Christian and a non Christian in terms of one is alive and one is dead.

I mean, that's key. One is blind and one you can see. But there's a common humanity that we share.

And I think knowing how we still, at the, you know, at the end of one John, we have to keep ourselves from idols. That gives a sense of fellow feeling, solidarity with other people, rather than seeing people as just projects or just different.

And, you know, if we love them, we'll want to be getting to know them. And that means building relationships. That means trust.

Because I think when we're talking about people talking about their deepest, darkest desires, hopes, fears, dreams, you don't do that with a stranger, do you? I mean, you do that with someone who knows you, who you trust. So I think there's a holistic nature to it. And so, yeah, it's all of those things.

Really. Yeah.

When we're talking about these. These. These ways of connecting with people, this holistic nature of mission and flows from our lives.

One of the things you've written about, and we talked about this the last time that you were on the show, is the magnetic points. Yeah, I wanted to review those just for those who are unfamiliar and just jumping onto this today.

But what are the magnetic points and where did they originate from?

Right, yeah. So the magnetic points then originate from this thinker, this. This missionary called J.H. bavink.

And he said, look, if you go to Romans 1, all religion is A response to God's revelation.

And what we do with God's revelation, because we know God, we're accountable to him, we depend upon him, is that in our sin we suppress the truth and we substitute it for all kinds of other things, idolatry. So Babin takes that standard anthropology. And he kind of.

He says, when you have image bearers who suppress the truth and substitute it for other things, if you kind of mix those ingredients together, you. What he. He calls.

He says that everyone has what he calls a religious consciousness, which is this kind of the fact that we know God and don't know him at the same time. We're running to him and running away from him at the same time. So it's a very complex, messy mix. And Bavin calls that religious consciousness.

Now, what Babinc says is there if we unpack the religious consciousness, he says, in his context, and he's working in kind of, I suppose, more world religion context, he says, look, religious consciousness seems to mean that whether a person's a Hindu or Buddhist or a Muslim or as I would say, a secular none. N o N E Because we're still made in the image of God, because we still suppress the truth and substitute it. There's a common humanity that.

That we all have. He says, look, there seems to be these five questions or five points that people are always answering, not consciously but often subconsciously.

And he calls these the magnetic points. They're like itches that we have to scratch, and they're not, again, don't compartmentalize them.

They're all perspectives on the one religious consciousness. But he says there's five. There's totality. Our desire for connection. Is there a way to connect?

We want to belong to something bigger than ourselves because then we feel significant. If we don't connect, we feel insignificant. So we're always striving for connection. Norm, is there a way to live? We all have standards.

We all have rules of who's in and who's out, what's acceptable and what's not. And all cultures, even countercultural movements, have these norms. Deliverance, is there a way out? We all look for.

We all think there's a problem with the world, but we can't agree on what the problem is, let alone whether there's a solution. And this deliverance is not just looking forward, it's looking back. It's kind of saying, wasn't it great when America was this?

And that's where we seek deliverance. And again, it can be big existential questions like what happens When I die, how well is there deliverance from that?

But it's also the mundane, everyday deliverance of how do I get through the day without another drink or another fix? Or how do I, you know, I'll only get deliverance today when. When the house is tidy, because that's what I have control of.

So there's all kinds of ways in which we seek deliverance. And then fourthly, destiny. Is there a way we control?

And Babinck says human beings are funny because he says we both lead our lives and undergo our lives. You know, Monday, Wednesday, Friday. I think I'm the master of my own destiny. I can do what I want. I can create my own future. I have freedom.

Tuesday, Thursday, Saturday, I'm in someone else's chess game on a puppet on a string. I don't have any freedom. And this is an interesting point, Travis.

When I've been doing this material in other countries, it's amazing how like, there are almost the spirit of a culture answers that question very differently. When I was in Slovakia, in Central Europe, with a.

Teaching this to a group of pastors, I said, a Slovakian is generally people who think that they are in control or under control. And 99% of them said, we are a nation whose psyche is. We've always been under control by other powers.

It was the Hungarian Empire, it was the Czech Empire, the, The. The. The checks. So there's a real psyche there of always feeling that we're left out. We're not considered. What's the point? Why bother doing anything?

Because it's just going to happen to us. A kind of a fatalism now or whenever I've done this material in the States. Americans, Americans. Americans are completely the opposite.

It is a kind of a. Like. I don't mean this technically, but it is a kind of a manifest destiny. It is a you. We're. We're. It's just get things done.

We can do whatever we want to. There's a real positivity there. Now, you know, who's to say which is right and which is wrong? Because I think in some senses both are true.

But it's amazing how different cultural contexts will answer that question differently, which in turn will end up meaning the way that we talk about the gospel will be shaped, our communication will be shaped by whether I'm talking to an American about destiny or whether I'm talking to a Slovakian about destiny. That's how. That's where the rubber hits the road on culture.

And then finally, the fifth point, which is kind of the super magnetic point is, is there a way, a higher power? Is there a way beyond?

I suppose the difference in Bavink's context is that everyone believes in God's when he's ministering in Asia in the, in the 60s, whereas now I think this is the, the magnetic point that has to be excavated. But it's where all the other points converge. Where do we get connection from and significance? Who gives us the norm and tells us what to do? Who is.

Where does deliverance come from? Who is in control? Is it someone outside of ourselves?

And the more we press onto that, the more we answer that question, is there a reality beyond reality? So they're the kind of the magnetic points, and I think they're a very helpful analytical tool to get traction.

Even in cultures where people don't call themselves religious, the Bible says we're all religious. And the magnetic points are a kind of a morphology or toolbox that can help us answer those questions of which, you know, giving the game away.

The gospel and Jesus Christ is the answer. He, Jesus ultimately is the way we connect. He's the norm, he's our deliverance. He is the one in control. And yet we still have responsibility.

And he is the way, the truth and the life. So that's where the magnetic points link to the gospel. So that's a long way of explaining that question.

I don't think it's a long way at all. I think it's something that helps us to see in detail what God has done across the world. I mean, that's just how we are his imagers.

We've got this thing within each one of us that is his way of providing a clue that he's in the world. I think of Bertrand Russell when he said, you know, when he was asked, why aren't you a Christian? He said, not enough evidence.

I don't understand how he could ever say that.

When you look at all these different.

Pieces that are there now, you've referenced multiple times, Bhavinc as the author that's influenced you the most, person who's given you the magnetic points. But let's help our audience. Let's introduce our audience further to him. Who Is this man? J.H. bavik?

Yes. If you've heard of the name Bavink, and you may not have done, he's not the Babbing that often people talk about. So Herman Bavink was J.H.

bavink's uncle. I'm talking about a guy called J.H. bavink who was the nephew of the more Famous Herman Babinck, who wrote these Reformed dogmatics.

And even then he was really interested, going back to what we spoke about before Travis, he was really interested in what it meant for indigenous expressions of the faith. And then in around the late 30s he comes back to teach in Kampen in the Netherlands and then finally at the Free University of Amsterdam where he.

He did some of his kind of most important theological work. I mean he was always writing. So yeah, that's who he was. He was a missiologist and a missions lecturer. It.

What's, what's interesting about him and where there's I suppose connection with people that we might know is that his book, J.H.

And the link there is that Tim Keller was taught by both Clowney and Conn. So there's a kind of, there is a bit of a direct line from JH Bavink through Clowney and Conn through to Keller.

And I think you see a lot of, probably not explicitly, although you know, Tim Keller before he died and I, we chatted about JH Bavink quite a lot.

And there's a bit of a Bavinck resurgence at the moment, whether that's the uncle or the nephew, but I think you see those kinds of family characteristics there. So yeah, that's, that's an introduction to J.H. bavink.

You've mentioned this resurgence of both the Bobinks and I would agree. I was speaking at a conference in Connecticut, it was a Baptist conference with these young Slavic young people. And Slavics say young means 12 to 30.

Usually what they mean to that, it's.

A very wide berth that's there. You can be married with children. You could still consider to you.

Yeah, yeah.

But while I was there I do.

A thing every Saturday evening of this weekend where they can ask anything and one of the questions they asked was on Herman Bovink. And it was, it was basically a 19 year old young man who's reading on Herman Bovink not looking just at JH but both the bobbings.

Why has there been such a resurgence and a desire especially of these younger people to learn who these in some ways obscure Dutch theologians that most people out there aren't aware of. What, what, what is it about them that draws them in?

I mean, I think there's a richness, I mean, I mean, I suppose both Herman and JH would be considered to be part of I suppose what you might call Neo Calvinism. And I mean, I mean there's been a lot written on Neo Calvinism recently and there's been some key figures.

I mean there's a guy called Grace Attendo and Corey Brock who have just done a ham a new handbook to a new introduction to Neo Calvinism.

I've just, I'm just contributing to a bigger handbook on Neo Calvinism and a guy called James Eglinton who wrote a big biography of Bavink, Herman Bavink. I think there's a richness to the theology that is just very substantial.

I mean it's a very, it's a rich tradition and I think when we're talking about issues to do with anthropology and human beings and how we know these are very learned, biblically well read people who come from a Reformed kind of Calvinistic tradition but who are willing to engage that Reformed theology with well, what was the, the modern thinking or modern culture of their day. And that needs to be done again for our generation as well. So I think that's part of it.

There's a, it's really helping to deal with the first that I think people have that we maybe weren't getting from a kind of a thin, a thin evangelicalism that really isn't substantial enough. Whereas these are deep thinkers but completely rooted in the solas of the Reformation in a way that I think is very attractive.

So deep theologically but deep culturally in understanding the times and knowing what we should do in terms of those men of Issaco in Chronicles. So I think that's partly the reason for it.

And also I think in the, obviously in the American context, the Dutch Reformed heritage has been there in certain communities for a long time, less so in the UK and that's probably why Herman and JH are probably less well known. But I think that's, that's partly one of the reasons.

Well, let's talk about his book that you have, Doris. You wrote the introduction for it. So and you had mentioned how you found this book.

But the church between Temple and yes, Mosque a study of the relationship between Christianity and other religions. I know some people are saying, I have no idea why I would want.

To read this book.

This isn't something you're going to necessarily get it like Barnes and Noble or any of the. I mean it's not like that. This is, this is a book that requires some knowledge, some concentration.

It's challenging going through it, but it's still important work, especially at this cultural moment which we find ourselves.

Yeah.

I mean, firstly, firstly, and I say this at the beginning, in some ways the book preserved my spiritual sanity. So I was, I was just started as an undergraduate theology and religious studies student, a very mainstream secular university.

And I realized very early on that some of the people that had influenced me in my evangelical life, no one, none of my lecturers or none of the reading lists had anything to do with what I was, I, I believed in. I mean I realized that early on that to be a Bible believing Christian in this degree that I'd undertaken was going to be very challenging.

And so I staggered into the, the main university library and I could, on the shelves again, I couldn't find anything that would, I would have anything in common with people. But I think it was the Scottish Bulletin of Evangelical Theology.

They'd reprinted one of the chapters from this book, which I'll talk about in a minute. Church between Temple and Mosque. And yeah, it was just a lifeline because it was talking of.

Bavinck was Talking about Romans 1, talking about how we know and don't know God, how, how using Calvin's term, that our minds have become a factory of idols. And all of a sudden I realized, yeah, here is someone who, who actually did engage so coming across that chapter.

And then I realized it was part of a bigger book called the Church between Temple and Mosque. Now what's interesting is that these were published only after they're posthumous. So they were only published as lectures after Bavinka died.

He gave them in English or they were translated into English to a group of American students.

He's one of the godfathers of religious studies. But apparently Iliada had read an earlier book by Bavink, one of his other great books called Religious Consciousness and the Christian Faith.

And on the basis of that, he'd invited Bavink to come over to teach in Chicago. So these were. These were for. These were lectures given to seminary students. And I think it's. Yeah, some of his best writing.

And so that's how I got into it. And then the book had been out of print for many, many years.

So Westminster Seminary Press said, look, we're interested in republishing it, doing a new edition. I think the rights were Erdmann's, and they got the rights from Erdman's Publishing. So they asked me, would I write a new forward, which tries to.

And I think this answers your final point, Travis, that even though this book is in the context of Bavinks, his context is more kind of what you might call, yeah, world religion.

So he talks about, you know, animism and Buddhism and Hinduism, but the theological structure is as relevant for your average secular American and Brit as it is these other religions. It's the theological structure which is so beautiful. And this is one of the first.

This is one of two areas of his writing where he starts to talk about these magnetic points. So the magnetic points bit I was talking about earlier, they kind of come from this book, the church between temple and mosque. So that.

That's why everyone should read this book, because it's as relevant for, as I say at the end, something like, you know, the church between temple and mosque or between the Amazon warehouse and the Internet provider. You know, it's as relevant because the anthropology, the theological anthropology, what the Bible says about human beings is exactly the same.

Taking that into consideration, knowing that this book is so relevant to today, let's break it down even further on how people can utilize the truths that are in this book. Yeah, like, get really practical. I'm in a community where there's a large Indian population, let's say, and there's also a lot of people that have.

Are. They're highly aspirational. They live in the suburbs. Their. Their children are involved in all these different kinds of activities.

Help us to see how I can bridge those two gaps with this book. And sitting down with this family that values education. They're from India. They are highly aspirational. They make a lot of money.

I don't, I mean, they go to temple. I don't ever see them there. I don't, I don't go there myself, obviously. And then my, my, my daughter is involved in, in, in a high school band.

And yet these families are sitting side by side with us in the stadium seats.

Help us to see how we can.

Actually practically build a relationship here. I'm probably asking a little bit too much, but.

Yeah.

And how these then would apply to that kind of relationship.

Yeah. So I think I talk about two things. I talk about, I suppose, the method. A method and the manner.

So the method would be again, using these at magnetic points to try and work out how these people in both of those different contexts are answering those different magnetic points in, in their lives. Where are they looking for belonging and significance? Now you've mentioned, yeah, it could be family, it could be education.

I mean, that could answer the deliverance question as well. What, what are their norms? And then what we have to do. And this is what I've, I've written about having writes about this here a little bit.

But in some of my other work in the book called Plugged in, where I try to give a kind of a method that we're to enter someone's world and then explore their worldview.

And then what we have to do very gently and lovingly is try and expose that these, the way that we're trying to answer the magnetic points without Christ will. Will lead to disappointment and disillusionment because they're fundamentally looking for.

They're looking for kind of the right things in all the wrong places. And we need to show that gently in the way that we ask questions, in the way that we're there when these things ultimately do fall down.

And that means personal relationship. If people can see that they are looking for connection, they are looking for norm. They might not call themselves religious at all, or they might.

But what we're doing then is in everything in our interactions with people, we're trying to do a compare and contrast. And then we can say how we find ultimate connection, how we work out our norms, what we think about deliverance. So it's always.

It's just a framework for our conversations to be more. And our relationships to be more intentional. So there is definitely a kind of a.

I'm not going to call it a strategy, but there's a kind of a framework that helps gives us the eyes to see people who sometimes might not be interested in anything we have to say because they think, well, I'm not a Christian, I'm not religious. But we know that they are and that's an encouragement. There's always a point of contact or what Babing says, I suppose a point of attack, I suppose.

But then the manner, this is where I think church between temple and mosque and Babbing. This is why I'm so influenced by him, you know, you know, he was a sinner saved by grace. But the way that he writes, there's such a love.

He, even though he's very hard on idolaters, need to turn from idols to the living God. It could be education, it could be the Hindu God in the temple, but he recognizes that there's a real love for the other.

And his writing is, is so, it's out of a sense of love. And he has this great line where he, he says, look, we need to unmask sin in other people's lives. We need to convict people of sin.

But we'll only do that when we realize that the weapons we use on other people have been used on us first. So I, I need to have a grace filled life. And there's in my evangelism and my apologetics and witness, there's no sense of superiority.

I'm another sinner saved by grace, talking to someone who needs God's grace. I'm one beggar telling another beggar where to find bread. And I think that that manner is very attractive because it babinc's all about relationship.

I mean, I would say about J.H.

baving's writing as one of his, as his biographer, a guy called Paul Visser says, if you're looking for kind of like Protestant scholasticism, you won't find it with Bavink. He's a very almost romantic, mystical writer. He beautiful turns of phrase, he writes really well.

But there's this idea that yeah, he just seemed to love other people. And I think that goes a long way in our witness. So in answer to your question, I'd want to say two things.

It's, yeah, there's certainly an intentionality in a way that we need to help people see that they're drinking from crack cisterns that cannot hold water, to quote Jeremiah 2. And we have a fountain of living water that has impacted our life. But also that fellow feeling of I'm just a sinner saved by grace.

I'm not superior morally intellectually, but I have met The Lord Jesus Christ. And I want you to meet him as well and to be able to say what Christ has done in my life and what he could do in your life.

I think there's a very personal, relational nature to our witness. And again, that moves away from people being seen as aliens or projects or things. These are fellow human beings. And yes, they.

They need Christ, just as I needed Christ.

That is excellent. That is excellent. And it almost steals the thunder of my last question here. You know, we're coming to the end of our time.

We have a short time today, but I mean, what we have done at the end of the show traditionally is tell people this is your water bottle for the week, something for them to sip on, a spiritual truth that'll carry them and nourish them and keep them. Keep them nourished through the week. What is a water bottle that we can give our audience before we conclude our time together today?

Yeah, I think, look, we live by faith, not by sight. Sometimes we're trying to witness to people in our context who we think we're banging our head against a brick wall. They don't seem interested.

They're even hostile. We want to talk about Jesus, and we never be it. We can never get the conversation in. It seems so difficult. And I think we can feel demoralized.

And actually we're tempted then to kind of move from what might be called an orthodox gospel to try and accommodate Jesus or to kind of, you know, syncretize. Look, what we have to do is trust what the Bible says about human beings.

And if Bavink is right, if what I'm saying is right, as I write this introduction to the temple and mosque.

And you know, that we need to trust our theology that says that all human beings, that however much they suppress the truth, it's never totally suppressed. We can never completely deface our image of Godness. There's always a way in. There's always a point of contact.

Yes, we may have to dig really hard and it may take a lifetime of relationship, but God hasn't left himself without a witness. And people, in some ways are all. However much we suppress the truth, to suppress the magnetic points, we have to answer them somehow.

You know, people of Athens, I see that you're very religious. That religiosity has to come out somewhere. And so there'll always be a way in. Yes, we need to be creative. We need to take risks.

But the water bottle moment would be, don't give up. If the Bible is right about what it says about human beings, There will always be a way in. And we're speaking to that image of God nursing people.

There's this kind of hardware software compatibility problem that all unbelievers have because they are made in the image of God, they're made for him. And yet we do try and deface the truth. We write all over it, but we can never totally do that.

And that would be the encouragement to everyone who sometimes we feel so kind of, it seems like such hard soil and it is hard soil in the west, especially as the gospel tide goes out. And yet there's always a way in. And we need to be creative, we need to be innovative.

But there's always hope and just keep on, keep on trying to find out how are they on, how they, how other people answering these magnetic points. And what can we say about how Jesus both confronts and connects and we see that in our life first of all as well.

That is a tremendous encouragement. Dan, as we finish our time together today. What is a way or how can people follow you and keep up with.

What you're what your Dr. Dan Strange's Twitter Facebook. I'm the director of something called Crosslands Forum.

We're providing resources for the church from first steps in discipleship.

We have these great foundation courses on all kinds of topics that small groups in churches, lay people can use as individuals or as groups through to a seminary that we, that we have an in context seminary where we have about 150 students all over the place doing a kind of a in context training in churches through to PhD as well. So we offer, we're just trying to offer theological resources that will help do exactly what I've been talking about today.

How do we equip the church? How do we train trainers?

How do we have theological educational cultures in our churches, wherever God has gifted people at whatever level that might be, we always need to be thinking, we always need to be saying, we always need to be working on formation. And that's the true of pastors as well. Pastors need to be continually being formed as well as people that they're looking after.

So check out, go to, go to Google, just type in Crosslands training and we'll come up and yeah, we'd love to talk to you if you're interested in any theological training resources. And it's just great.

I mean it's great to know, Travis, that you know what we're doing, what you're doing at Apollos Watered, what places like the Keller center for Cultural Apologetics.

I think a number of groups are realizing that this is a really important time, especially I think in American life and culture where you're questioning your own identity and that could, that can come out in all kinds of ugly ways.

But I think grasping the idea that you, your average American Christian is in a cross cultural mission situation, I think that's one of the key things that we need to do and that will need a mindset, a culture change, a paradigm shift. And I know that you're committed to that and God be with you in trying to communicate that to, to your audience.

Thank you, Dan. I really appreciate that and encouragement for both of us as we're both trying to do this.

And as I was talking to Malcolm Guy and he said, you know, no matter how bad it gets, Jesus got down to 11 and he was fine. So if we get down, we get down. God is going to be faithful.

But brother, thank you so much for your ministry and it was such a joy to have you on the show today.

Thanks, Travis. Thanks, everyone.

You know, we recommend a ton of books around here. I mean, that's what we're doing. We're sifting through all this stuff for you.

That's why I said earlier we have you, because we know you can't possibly sift through it all. You don't have the money to buy all the books and you don't have the time to sift through that. You are busy.

You are trying to just keep your head above water. We understand that. You got to get, pick the kids up. You gotta be able to run errands.

You're trying to get maybe a workout in, if that's even possible. I mean, you are trying to get that bill paid, shepherd, that person, talk to this person, have that meeting, have coffee. It's just exhausting.

That's why we are here for you. And we do read and recommend a lot of books around here.

It's not every day, though, that we recommend a book because of the guy who wrote the introduction, introduced us to that authority. And see, Strange actually wrote the introduction to this new book on J.H. bavink.

And that's the case today.

I was not really aware of J.H. bavik before reading and interviewing Dan Strange last spring when we first met.

But since then, I've gotten to know how his work, I understand it a bit better. And I have actually found him to be one of those rare thinkers who is at once insightful and practical.

You know, he's not just a pie in the sky academic man. He's always like, how do we apply this? How do we take this. How do we run with this?

And he thinks deeply and gives a very good grounding for how we should view ourselves as human beings created in the imago dei, the image of God on the one hand, and how that thinking should work its way out in the real world. I mean, when you're going into the grocery store just to pick up some tomatoes or, you know, some pasta, whatever it is, he understands that.

And because that is something we all need, we can't just have this pie in the sky academic theatricians that are out there, I mean, we do have some of those on here, but we want to get down into the nitty gritty of everyday life. We do need to think well, and then we need to do something with that thinking. In some ways, what we do here is a practical missiology.

Now, people matter because God created us in his image.

All of us, no matter where we.

Are from, what our status is, no matter what our education is, no matter how messed up we are, what, how messed up our background is, no matter how Christian or pagan we are, God cares for us.

He does.

While we were still yet sinners, Christ died for us. Or just the verse that we all know.

For God so loved the world, right at the end of the day, we are both who God made us to be and broken by the fall, as Dan put it. If Romans 1 is true, and it is, then we both know God and we also try to suppress Him. We do. We have to break through that.

And our mission is to help others break through, to give God glory in and through the cultural mandate, as we read in Genesis 1, through evangelism and through the building up of the church.

We do that in large part by recognizing how God has made us as humans and how we all have been broken by the fall and how those magnetic points all converge in Jesus. And if we try to answer, without him, we are doomed to fail. We don't even have to be evil.

We can be sincere and moral and still fail simply because without Christ, we can't answer the questions. I love Dan's water bottle. Don't give up. Don't, don't give up.

No matter how much garbage you see in X or on Facebook or what, whatever people are posting, don't give up, don't give in. Keep your eyes on Jesus.

We may feel like we are hitting our heads against the proverbial brick wall, and we may, and this is the hard part, never see the fruit. We may never see the fruit. But I guarantee that God is going to make Your ministry fruitful. That may be someone else's job to come along.

You know, I planted Apollo's water. God made it grow. It might be someone else's job. You might just be the waterer.

And you might not see that growth in your lifetime, but know that it is a privilege and God is going to work it out. So don't grow weary in doing good, as Paul said. But we live by, remember this faith. That's right, faith. I know, I know. Like I'm doing that, Travis.

I'm trying. Keep on, keep on. We're right there with you. It's not by sight. God calls us to himself and to let others know who he is.

Because this is far more than simply cosmic fire insurance. No, it's so much more. This is who we are meant to be as Christ followers.

If you are interested, you can find the church between Temple and Mosque at Amazon or Christian Book Distributors or the Westminster Bookstore. And I'm going to say this up front. I know this doesn't do well with a lot of people. It's not an easy read. It's not.

I mean, Dan's book is much easier to read, much more contemporary. For one, he's writing in English, not Dutch, as Bavink was, and he's been translated.

However, I do think that if you are a person who's really serious and you want to explore this further, then it's. It's very worthwhile, especially if you are interested in going deeper and helping your church to better engage the culture where you live.

I want to thank our Apollos watered team for helping us to water the world. And I want to thank you for listening with us. I want you to continue on.

Don't give up.

Keep going. But don't grow weary in doing good. This is Travis Michael Fleming signing off from Apollo's Water.

Stay watered, everybody.