#105 | Prophetic Voices in Chaotic Times | Trevin Wax

I think the church is at a moment where there's a lot of rot in the church. And so it's a time for reformation and rebuilding.

And unfortunately, a lot of times conservative leaning people, in order to protect the institution, wind up. Not intentionally, but they wind up defending rot.

Unfortunately, progressive leaning people, in order to purge the institution, wind up blowing up foundational pillars.

It's watering time, everybody.

It's time for Apollos Watered, a podcast to saturate your faith with the things of God so that you might saturate your world with the good news of Jesus Christ. My name is Travis Michael Fleming and I am your host. And today we're having another one of.

Our.

Deep conversations.

A deep conversation with Trevin Wax. Have you ever felt that the church in the west is stuck?

I mean, you might look around and see that there's so much confusion in regards to sexuality and direction and the Bible and how we're to live. I mean, we have more access to information than ever before, but where can we find voices of wisdom and reason?

And are there any voices from history out there that can help us? Trevin has an idea.

Trevin is vice President of Research and Resource Development at the North American Mission Board of the Southern Baptist Convention and a visiting professor at Wheaton College.

A former missionary to Romania, Trevin is a regular columnist at the Gospel Coalition and has contributed to the Washington Post, Religion News Service, World and Christianity Today, which named him one of the 33 millennials shaping the next generation of evangelicals. He has served as the general editor of the Gospel Project.

He's the author of multiple books, including the Multi Directional Leader, Rethink Yourself, this Is Our Time, Eschatological Discipleship and Gospel Centered Teaching. He and his wife Karina have three children. Trevin and I discussed the prophetic British writer G.K.

And besides Chesterton, we discuss issues in regards to sexuality, Disney, and how an understanding of history in the global church is going to help the church move forward, forward successfully. It's really a wide ranging and insightful conversation that is sure to help you water your world better. Happy listening.

Trevin Wax. Welcome to Apollo's Watered.

That's probably the most enthusiastic welcome I've ever had on any podcast I've ever been on. So good to be with you. You win, Travis, you win.

We win an award of some kind.

But I'll take it.

I'll take it. But are you ready for the Fast 5.

I don't know what they are, so I hope I'm ready. I'm gonna try to be ready.

All right, here we go. First question's pretty basic. Would you rather be in the city or the country?

Oh, definitely the city. I love hustle and bustle and people. I like action, activity all going around. I mean, the country's amazing to go away to and visit, but I prefer.

I definitely prefer the city. There's nothing like the energy of a city. Sorry.

Now, where are you from, though? Are you from a city? Small town. Big time.

I'm from outside of Nashville, so I'm from a town that was outside of Nashville, Murfreesboro, Tennessee, that has more than doubled in size since I was a teenager here. So it is now. It's becoming. It's basically become this city next to a big city. So. Yeah.

Okay, here's the next question. Your wife is Romanian, correct?

That's right.

The best Romanian food dish is.

Oh, that would have to be just the straight up. Like, chicken soup is spectacular. But they. Romanians are known for sarmala, which is this, like, these cabbage rolls with pork and rice inside that.

They're. They're amazing. And I know a lot of people, they hear cabbage, they kind of turn up their nose to cabbage.

There's sweet cabbage and there's more sour cabbage, but they're. It's all really the way that it's cooked, and, like, it's cooked in this tomato sauce, and it's like. And there's bacon in it, so it's. Yeah.

Those are phenomenal.

Here we go. Next question. Funniest or strangest?

Cross cultural experience.

Funniest or strangest? Okay, definitely. I don't know if everyone would think this was funny. I think it's funn. I was first learning Romanian. I did not know.

You know, you get to that stage where you're becoming fluent, but you don't know as much as you think you know. And so you're so. You just know enough to be dangerous. Okay.

And I was standing at the back of a church, and one of the older ladies came out, and, you know, they all, like, give you kisses on both cheeks as they're walking out the church because you're there, you know, And I was there with the translator, but I was getting enough Romanian that I could kind of have a little bit of conversation. And I, you know, I basically asked her about her husband, and I thought she said her husband was sick. And so I said, I hope he recovers quickly.

And the translator looked at Me and said, Trevin. She just said her husband is dead. And there's a big difference between dead and sick. And so my response in Romanian was, I hope she recovers.

I hope he recovers. And she looked at me really strangely. So that was one of those. I guess it's strange. It's also funny. It's also like dark humor.

I don't know what category you want to put that in. But that's when I realized, okay, I do not know Romanian yet as well as I think I do. I take it with me. So.

I love the different cross cultural experiences, especially when it comes to language. Yes, that's when it gets pretty funny.

You cannot become fluent unless you're ready to look like a fool. And that the humility is required to master another language because if you don't get over that fear of looking foolish, you'll never do it.

And that's one of the examples of me looking foolish.

So that is so, so true. All right, here we go. You're a very well read and wide ranging writer, but the best writer of the 20th century is.

Well, I mean, would anyone that really reads my stuff doubt that I'm gonna say GK Chesterton. I am a huge Chesterton fan.

I know some people would say, you know, I mean, a lot of people, there are a lot of Lewis fans out there, but Lewis got so much of his stuff from Chesterton. I think Chesterton has got to be one of the greatest writers of the. Just for sheer volume of words, massive amount of words.

But I don't know, I may, I may rethink that later. If you.

Now that you've asked me that, I may, I may go back and be like, no, I think there's actually a couple of people that probably beat Chesterton.

But yeah, we'll get a kid to Chesterton in a bit. But I thought you might say that. That's why I was curious. And you guys are. Couldn't be more total opposite. I mean, just from like, he's a large guy.

You're not a large guy.

No, no, not at all. And he was huge. Huge personality. Huge. Physically, very imposing. Yes, for sure.

How tall was he?

You know, he was. I think, I think it was like 6 foot 3 or something. Like 6 foot 4. But I mean, it was just massive, like, you know, like over £300. Yeah.

Most of his life. Yeah. So definitely. Was he. There's a. There's a funny story with him and George Bernard Shaw. Who?

Shaw and Chesterton were like philosophical, ideological opposites. Shaw was you know, socialistic, was atheist, whatnot. Well, Shaw was also very puritanical. Wouldn't drink, wouldn't, like eat certain things.

Well, I think he was like a vegetarian. I mean, extraordinarily skinny. And they were dear friends their whole lives. They debated all the time. But then they were all also good friends.

And one time, Chesterton looked over at Sean, said, man, if someone would look at. From the looks of you, someone would say that a famine has come upon England.

And Shaw's response was, from the looks of you, someone would say you caused it. So, I mean, that's one of those. Just like those back and those titanic intellect, you know, back and forth.

I like that. That's good. Oh, I always love hearing the stories of people that were friends but rivals and those little one liners.

Oh, yeah, you had Spurgeon and Moody had something very similar where Moody said to Spurgeon, how do you feel like God feels about your. Your smoking? You know, because he always smoked a cigar way he feels about your eating.

So speaking of Spurgeon, I actually have held in my hand the cigar that was on his person when he died.

Really?

Yes, it is at Midwestern Seminary. And I had a friend who had it. And I mean, that cigar was in his pocket when he died. So.

Yeah, that's interesting. You've actually seen quite a bit of stuff which we're gonna get to. I don't want to.

Yeah, for sure. I've got stories, man. I've got stories.

You even had some stuff. I think it was from the Wheaton archives. You had Jim Elliott's journal.

Yeah, I've gotten to see that. I've gotten to hold that, you know, look through those journals, you know, and I mean, it's. Yeah, the. Just some. Some.

I've got plenty of stories of just weird things that have happened over the years where I get to get to, you know, I. You know, we make fun of Catholics for their relics, but I think we evangelicals have our own relics.

We do. We totally do. We totally do. And our own popes and cardinals.

That's probably true. Yeah.

Okay, here we go. The last question is this in the fast five. Now it's gone into the kind of the long five. But that's okay. If you were in ethnic food. Right.

We've talked a little bit about food. What ethnic food besides Romanian would you be? And why?

Well, all food is ethnic. So I guess you're asking me minority ethnic.

Is it a banana? I mean, that's a vet. I mean, that's just a Fruit. That's not.

That is true. That is true. Dishes.

Like a dish.

Yeah, I get like, a dish. I mean, there's nothing to me that's better than, like, nachos or a taco salad. Like, I love good, authentic Mexican dishes.

And I've got a good friend who's a Cuban friend of mine, Ivan Mesa, who recently introduced me to Cuban food.

And the very sharp distinctions I find out between Mexican and Cuban dishes, there's still some similarities, I would say, and I kind of told him about them, but. But I will say he won me over. The Cuban dishes that I had were really good.

He ordered for me and everything at a Cuban, like an authentic Cuban restaurant. Like, I didn't even look at the menu. He was like, this is what you're getting. So that's awesome.

I always love it when people get to order for you.

Well, I mean, the way I look at it, if you're new to a kind of cuisine, you've got to. You've got to trust that other people know best. So.

So let's get to the Trevin Wax story. Tell us a bit about yourself. I mean, you said you grew up in Murfreesboro, Tennessee. And I mean, we know you write a lot of different things.

You work with the North American Mission Board, you're an adjunct professor at Wheaton, you've worked at Lifeway. I mean, you're with the Gospel Coalition, you're all over the place. But let's get a little bit of background into the Trevon Wyck story.

So share a bit of that, if you will.

Yeah, so I grew up in Middle Tennessee, and I guess the thing that started to kind of carve these other paths for me was I went to. I started going on mission trips when I was 15 years old to Romania.

That's what kind of ignited my passion and desire for missions, for cross cultural ministry.

And when every year as a teenager doing different things, I mean, we'd had, you know, evangelistic trips, but then also, you know, we'd get people for eyeglasses. Um, did, you know, pulled a lot of teeth and dental work, you know, general medicine type stuff as well, youth events, all sorts of things.

So did that. I.

When I graduated high school, I took a gap year before anyone called it a gap year, partly just because I wasn't sure what I was going to do exactly, but also because I wanted to have some time to. To. To, you know, to work and make some money that would go to my college. I didn't want to wind up out of College and a lot of debt.

And it was during that, it was during that year that God redirected my plans to a Christian university in the US to go into a Christian university in Romania instead.

So I wound up, I bought a one way ticket when I was 19, moved over to Romania, learned the language, was there for, pretty much was there for five years, did my undergrad there, I met my wife there. We had our first son who's about to graduate high school. We had him when I was a student there.

And then, yeah, came back, did about 18 months on campus at Southern Seminary and then did the rest of it from a distance while I was an associate pastor in Tennessee. And all this time I was writing a lot. So I've been a writer ever since I was a kid.

I've written stories, I've written essays, I've written journals, thoughts ever since I was little, but kept working on that craft and discipline in my 20s. And then, you know, by my late 20s that was when, you know, I had, you know, a first publisher want to, to publish something from me.

So I, I did a proposal, it was accepted by Crossway. And so I was. Yeah. So when I was 29 that my first, first book came out. And then shortly after that, Moody wanted a second book.

So I started doing that. And then I wound up going to Lifeway shortly after that and was there for about 11 years.

We launched something called the Gospel Project, which is a curriculum, a curriculum for all ages that shows how all the scriptures point to Jesus.

I did that for about half the time and then the other half of the time I helped launch the csb, the Christian Standard Bible Translation, and was there on, you know, at Lifeway doing a number of other things, working with an amazing team, just people all across that organization learning a lot. And since last August have been at the North American Mission Board doing research and resource development.

So I lead a team that is providing free resources for pastors, for church planters, places like newchurches.com you can go. And there's all sorts of courses and things that people can get absolutely free.

So that's been exciting for us to be able to launch and do in the last previous few months.

That's pretty awesome. And that's a lot of experience. Are you still pastoring?

So it was kind of like, I.

Hate to see if you went full time.

Yeah, like the part time in quotations, you know, but no. So I've been able to do that. I've done. I recently wrapped up an interim preaching role at a.

At a church in the Nashville area that I was able to be at for about 10 months, which was fantastic. So I still get to get out and get to do preaching and teaching and whatnot, but I'm not currently pastoring anywhere.

So a little bit of a break as you write more books and that's why you probably had more blog entries.

This is one of the reasons I honestly, it was a question of calling for me. I came down, you know, I was. I'd been doing the teaching pastor thing for two years, and I just got to this realization where I knew I.

All of my creative energies. It wasn't a time question. It was really creative creativity was all going into sermon prep. And I was really.

I thought, there's no way I can write a book If I'm preaching 40 weeks a year. It's just. It was just too much. And so I had to. I basically, I had to come to that. To that point of decision to say, okay, God, what do you.

What do you really want me to do the most? Like, what am I best at? Am I better at preaching or better at writing? Because if I've got to choose one.

And for me, the writing was always higher than the. Than the preaching, as much as I love to preach. So the preaching is now more of an intermittent type thing. And I can write all the time.

And the writing is. Is really where I think the Lord has called and gifted me the most.

Which I would agree. I mean, I've not heard you preach. I've seen you do videos and interviews and conversations.

But I know your writing has affected a lot of different people. So let's talk a bit about the writing, because you have a wide array of topics that you write about.

And your most recent book is the annotated version of G.K. chesterton's, as you've already mentioned book done over a hundred years ago.

Which is incredible to me that when I first saw the book come out, I went, what in the world is he writing about? G.K. chesterton's book that came out over 100 years ago. Why do an annotated version of this book and have it released today?

Well, you know, the book has never been out of print. It's a classic.

It's considered a classic by all kinds of People, you know, apologetics people, theologians, you know, Christian, thoughtful Christians have read it for more than 100 years now. I mean, CS Lewis was obviously in. Influenced by it. Orthodoxy is a classic, but it's a hard book to read.

I don't even know that I understood a quarter of it, what I was reading. It was dense, but it was also brilliant. There were these. These sentences and certain paragraphs that were just jaw dropping, right?

Just, I mean, burst off the page kind of insight. So it was like being. I've compared it to being in this. You feel like you're.

You're making your way through a dense jungle and you're finding nuggets of gold everywhere, but you really don't know the path you're on. You're just finding these gold nugget. So, so basically, I mean, I've gotten. I think I've read Orthodoxy now probably ten times or so.

It's just one of those books I've gone back to a lot.

And I got to this place where I thought, you know, there really needs to be a very nice version of this book that's nicely typeset, that beautiful cover, just really, you know, the feel of the book, really, to show how much this book actually deserves to be treated well. But I thought, you know, for first timers trying to get into this book, it's really hard. What if we.

What if I just did some things like break up some of the paragraphs? Because These guys from 100 years ago, they wrote these extraordinarily lengthy paragraphs.

So I wanted to break up the paragraphs, maybe do some subheadings so that people could follow the train of thought a little bit more.

Do a little intro at the beginning of each chapter to kind of let you know, hey, this is what this chapter is and where you're going, some things to look for on the way, and then on the back end, have a summary to say, hey, here's what just happened. Some discussion questions like, here's how you know, and then to go through.

And the thing about orthodoxy that really, really trips people up is that Chesterton is constantly referring to historical happenings, events, places and people that today we have absolutely no context for and so the annotations are there basically to say, okay, you have no idea who this person is, but let me just tell you who this person is, why?

And then you can kind of figure out, oh, that's why Chesterton's referring to this person or that person or this place in England that you've never been to, that you don't know what it is like to kind of understand how the flow of the argument works so you don't get bogged down in some of those. Some of those details. So. So that, yeah, it just really, for me, was a labor of love. I really. I love that book. I love Chesterton.

And, you know, I wanted to. To be able to.

To introduce people to that book in a way that would keep them reading rather than have them give up and miss out on some of the treasures that you find in it.

What do you think that his message is for the church today?

Well, I mean, the thing about Chesterton, he wrote so much, he'd say there could be a lot of messages depending on which kind, which way you get into Chesterton, because, I mean, he wrote all kinds of literature.

But I would say from the apologetic standpoint, which is really where he's most appreciated by evangelicals today, I would say the big message from Chesterton is a gratitude for existence, first and foremost, that fundamental insight that it is better to exist than to not exist that really douses the flames of nihilism or any kind of just hopelessness or despair in the world. The gratitude for existence being the first thing.

I think there's something about that that then awakens in people a sense of awe and wonder at the world where he helps you to see the world, to see the church, to see Christianity with an entirely. Like to take things that have become overly familiar to us and make them fresh to us. Chesterton has that.

That through his wit and through his wisdom, it has that ability to be able to do that. So I think, not taking for granted the amazingness, the astonishing nature of reality and of Christianity, I think is the first big thing.

And from an example standpoint, just his ability to be really good friends with people who he was completely opposed to philosophically, who he thought were ideologically dangerous, actually. And yet to have that sort of.

There's a cheerfulness to Chesterton that comes out of this strong sense of confidence that, you know, God's got this right.

So he's often called the laughing prophet because there's this very strong prophetic streak to him, and yet there's this joviality that's really, it's almost, it's a strange juxtaposition, his prophetic call and nature and warnings, even with this, this cheerful confidence and joviality that comes from him. And it's extraordinarily appealing and attractive when you meet like this gigantic personality like that.

So I think that's why he has stood this test of time and why he continues to be relevant and read even today.

Give us an example of how he was prophetic. I'm really curious to see how he was prophetic into the culture.

Like he, he recognized and saw ahead of time this sense in which the world and I mean, and he even says things even in, in Orthodoxy and in other books, that pretty soon common sense things are going to be turned upside down and the very definitions of words are going to change that we're going to have where people will be driven out of society basically by stating what's obvious and what everyone knows to be true.

Like the actual common sense truths will become uncommon and there will be all sorts of things that are, because they're ideologically driven, will be this sort of facade that becomes what's taken for reality.

And so you read some of these lines and some of these statements from, you know, you know, 80, 90, 100 years ago, and you think this is, it's as if he were looking 100 years into the future and was seeing a lot of what was happening. But it's because he had this mind that could trace out the philosophical endpoints of a lot of, of, of what he was doing.

I mean, not all of Chesterton's work fits that, that prophetic nature.

But I mean, he, you know, he saw, for example, that the, I mean, he thought he wrote a book called Eugenics and Other Evils in which he was really taking on the entire progressive establishment of his day in saying eugenics is dastardly. It's actually, it's an extraordinarily pernicious and insidious ideology. And all the progressives at the time were lined up pro eugenics.

That we've got to sort of create a better humanity by weeding out the less desirables and whatnot.

And Chesterton saw that eugenics, its connection to birth control and then abortion as well, was going to create a society that would move in that direction.

And so after World War II, of course, eugenics became unpopular, at least in the form that it had been in the 20s and 30s, but it still has not been unpopular. It's been actually extraordinarily successful when you look at what's taken place in society since then.

And even some of the rationale and reasoning behind some of the court decisions that we've had in the United States around abortion and things like that, as to the populations that are more affected than others and what that actually looks like, or even when you see, you know, people in different. Cheering on different countries where people will say, oh, down syndrome has almost been eradicated in Sweden or whatnot.

And it's like, no, no, no, we've merely killed all the people that would have had down syndrome. You know, like, that's. That. You know, that all of that is present in Chesterton's foresight.

And so, yeah, extraordinarily interesting individual with a lot of. Of insight into what was coming. Coming in the future.

Well, what led to his conversion, and I'm talking about from Protestantism to Catholicism.

That's something that I think a lot of evangelicals have a tendency to kind of the, you know, a bit of the question mark comes up, what do we do with him because of that? But what, what, what really led to that? Was it an intellectual? Was it a spiritual awakening? Was it a combination? What was it?

He begins to argue for the existence of God and then orthodoxy is, in some ways is sort of his. His coming out as a Christian book where he's basically saying, I agree with the basic essentials of Christianity, but he even mentions an orthodoxy.

Chesterton's. Chesterton's reasons for converting to Catholicism are really interesting. He writes about them in a lot of different. In a lot of different places.

And, you know, there's. When you read him as a Protestant, you. And as you know, Chesterton was a journalist first and foremost, not a theologian.

So he's not someone you really go to for theology as much as you go for his, his sort of take on the world. But as a theologian myself, reading him, I, I don't, I find a lot.

I mean, some places he's extraordinarily helpful, and then other places he's just completely off base. You know, like the, you know, there's aspects of Puritanism that he gets right. Critiques and whatnot.

There's aspects of Calvinism critique that he gets right. Then there's aspects that I think he's.

No, he's really not read enough there and, or hasn't actually gotten to the, to the root of some of the reasons why, for example, in our day, someone like a John Piper, who is as Calvinistic as they come, loves GK Chesterton.

It's almost like he realizes, yeah, Gilbert just doesn't, doesn't really get the fact that that same sort of sacred intoxication of existence is actually at the root of that gratitude for existence and salvation you can get in Reformed theology as well. Chesterton's reasons for converting, he would say very simply, well, I converted to have my sins forgiven.

Because he, he basically saw the church as providing the assurance of sins through confession through the sacramental system and whatnot.

But it's interesting you read him, one of the reasons or one of the things that pushes him towards Catholicism and awake from Anglicanism is that he really didn't believe Anglicans were acting like a church.

You know, like in the sense of there was all that conversation around the time about divorce, loosening restrictions on divorce and remarriage, and then also birth control at the time as well.

And so all of these things that basically he looks at Anglicanism and then you have people that are, you know, Anglican bishops and whatnot kind of dancing around things like the virgin birth or the reality of miracles and whatnot.

And so Chesterton is watching that sort of preceding the fundamentalist and modernist controversies that were beginning to happen in the US at the time. And I think, I think he, his take was, you know, I, he wants not a church that will move with the world, but a church that will move the world.

And so Anglicanism begins to lose its luster as that church in Catholicism at the time begins to really shine as that kind of church that's going to sort of resist the tides of modernity and things like that. And so that's part of that, of that push from Chesterton from Anglicanism into Catholicism.

And I mean, for reasons that even I myself would be sympathetic to in a lot of ways, although I wonder what Chesterton would say now about, you know, just some of the ways that the, that the Catholic Church has developed and how the Second Vatican Council has been used in Catholic circles, you know, the spirit of Vatican II to push through a lot of different things.

That would have probably been somewhat appalling to Chesterton in some ways 100 years ago or some of the discussions even now among some of the German bishops and whatnot.

So as someone who follows Roman Catholic development from afar with an appreciation, I think, for some of their, their public theology and their sort of Christian social teaching, it is interesting to, I do wonder at times how, what, what Chesterton would say today about the Catholic Church or even if he would even say, you know, what he, would he say today about Catholicism, what he said a hundred years, about 100 years ago about Anglicanism. I mean, I.

It's just interesting to think about what that might look like or how he would, what his take would be on some of those current controversies in the Catholic Church.

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Where do you see the church at right now? Because you've written a lot on where we're at, what's going on. But where do you see the American church right now?

I'm working actually on some, I'm working on a podcast potentially to start, about just addressing what I think is a credibility crisis in the US and it's a credibility crisis in the US Church for a number of reasons.

First and foremost, I think we'd all have to admit the sex abuse scandals that have touched virtually every denomination at some level, those are horrifying and those are.

There's nothing more damaging to the credibility of the church than seeing us not care for the least of these or to, to have a blind eye or not be attentive to that conversation. So I think the ramifications of that are going to be with us for a long time.

What I see happening right now in the American church, and one of the things that concerns me is that when you see corruption in the church, which there is plenty of, when you see all sorts of excesses, toxic leadership stuff, I mean, people listen to the rise and fall of Bars Hill podcast and you know, you see celebrity preachers, the fall of many of them, or you see people that weren't who we thought they were, people like Ravi Zacharias and others. There's that sense in which there's been a real reckoning, an unveiling, an apocalyptic moment in the church today.

And it's happened both on the large scale with like well known figures, but then it also happens on a smaller scale with stories that don't make headlines and yet leave people bewildered and wondering about the future of the church. I think the church is at a moment where there's a lot of rot in the church. And so it's a time for reformation and rebuilding.

And unfortunately a lot of times conservative leaning people, in order to protect the institution, wind up. Not intentionally, but they wind up defending rot.

And unfortunately, progressive leaning people, in order to purge the institution, wind up blowing up foundational pillars. So neither one of those serves the church well.

You blow up foundations and sort of throw baby out with the bathwater or you get rid of actually, for example, in the conversations about purity culture, there are aspects of what was, you know, kind of the whole push for true love waits and saving yourself for marriage and whatnot.

There were aspects of the way that was taught in the 90s that were, were legalistic excesses that wound up being almost something of a, of a pseudo Prosperity gospel about, about sex. And I think a lot of it was well intentioned. But I mean Josh Harris obviously I kissed dating an example of that.

So conservatives, I think those who lean more conservative tend to just overlook some of those problems that were created in that sort of, that, that attempt to increase, you know, purity among a younger generation in which there was a lot of temptation in the world, wind up defending rot there some that was, that is really against the gospel. You know, Matt Chandler's Jesus Wants the Rose video is a good example of, of a gospel approach to some of that excess.

On the other hand, I hear a lot of talk about purity culture as if it's completely a bad thing.

Whereas I think in a lot of terms a lot of people that are more progressive leaning believe the Christian sexual ethic altogether is repressive or harmful or if that we're stressing, you know, virginity among our kids or if we're trying to, you know, hold, hold them to the standard that, that, that God sets out for their own good and for his glory, that somehow that in itself is. And that's a good.

For me that's an example of conservatives defending rot and progressives blowing up pillars and sort of detaching from the great Christian tradition. So I think the task for us in the next generation is going to be a lot of rebuilding. We talk a lot about deconstruction these days.

I think there's going to have to be a reconstructing project that takes place in which we, we actually remove the rot and we fortify the foundations. And I think we can do that. At the same time, to do that, well, we're going to have to know the difference between rot and foundations.

And I think the only way you can really discern the difference between those two though is to be acquainted with the church throughout history and be acquainted with the church around the world. You need a good dose of church history and we need a really strong connection to the global church.

And I think that's how you're able to get out of this American chaos right now and have the right kind of perspective on the moment and what we should do moving forward.

I have to say how much I love that as we were talking in the pre show walkthrough, that's actually what we see ourselves trying to do or trying to help with that. Knowing that it takes a lot of different people being able to do that.

But it's our contention that a lot of the things that we see going on globally is a real help to us because we've been such a high Christendom culture for so long and that.

Rod has, has been allowed and now.

That, as you said, it's been a real coming of age or reckoning. I love how you put that, the reckoning. How then do we try to then bring in that global aspect?

Because that is something that we're very, very passionate about. And the historical part, because people have a tendency to think that the church just showed up lately.

Like it's, you know, it's a five minute culture we can't see really too far in the back. I was talking with Os Guinness and that's what his big lament was, is we've detached ourselves from history. We don't understand history.

How do we then communicate to a society which seems to live more on TikTok than it does on their understanding of world history?

Yeah, that's a great question. I don't know that I have the best solution to that.

Let's come up with it together, Trevin.

Let's do it right now.

You know, Chesterton has that line that is one of the most dangerous and most uncomfortable things for a man to do is to think. And this is why hardly ever anyone does it. So I think he was so good with the quote. He was.

I love it.

There's a line for everything. Like that's the thing. There's a witty line from him for everything.

No, but you know, I think it requires, it requires a certain amount of both patience and humility. And those are two things that being online all the time actively are actively fought against patience.

Because everything is a quick fix culture, like you said. I mean, you have everything just in a moment's notice. It's a TikTok video, it's a 10 second reel, you know, that kind of thing.

You know, and then, and then I think with the global church, I mean, nothing is more formative, I think, for people than having strong connections to people in other parts of the world.

Because when you, when you get to know people from other parts of the world who love Jesus, worship Jesus, have a Very high view of the scriptures, want to submit to the scriptures, you very quickly realize what things are essential versus non essential. Yeah, because believers in other parts of the world do not see American politics the same way that we do.

They don't see the same categories that we do there. They. They may have differences of perspective or posture based on the kind of culture that they're seeking to be a witness in.

And so, you know, there's all of these conversations going on about what should be the, you know, the American. What should be the.

The church's posture to, you know, culture change in the United States, or are we moving back into this moment where we really need culture warriors, you know, or do we need to seek, you know, convictional kindness kind of a thing? Like, there's all these debates over the posture. And I just don't think those debates get solved by just listening to Americans pontificate.

I think we need the rest of the global church to offer perspective in those ways.

What do you think some of those things that they offer a perspective on?

Well, I think it's very easy for Americans to.

It's very easy for us to confuse some of our idiosyncrasies, just those things that are sort of specific to an American context to things that are, like, specific to the. Or we can think that those things apply everywhere in every way.

Give me an example. Give us an example.

Yeah, so, I mean, for example, you know, the particular view that many Americans would have on. I've used this example before on, like, capital punishment.

There's a lot of Americans, American, especially conservative Christians, who see capital punishment as not only biblical in principle, but also in practice, and would question really the ethical stance of any believer that sees that differently.

Whereas you go in other parts of the world, Romania would be one example where a lot of the believers in Romania, coming out of a dictatorial regime where capital punishment was used against all kinds of people, you know, unfairly, would say, why would you ever want to give the government that kind of power? Like, that's not something that, you know, that.

And they not necessarily argue against it biblically from the standpoint that there's no biblical justification for it.

I think Romans 13 would make that there to be a biblical justification, but would almost say similar to the way that, you know, many Christians in other parts of the world would say that it's biblical in principle, but not always fairly applied in practice, so that it's. It's permissible, but not necessarily commanded. Right. So, you know, that's something that I remember as A, as a young person being shocked by.

Because I realized, oh, that sort of position that I had in my head was sort of just.

The biblical position is actually a position that, I mean, you can debate whether or not it's biblically, it's biblical in the way it's applied or whatnot. But it's one of those things I realized that's not an essential.

Like, that's not something like, that's actually something that Christians may have, you know, questions about or disagreements about or wonder about the prudence of in having to figure out how to apply it.

And so there are all sorts of issues like that where you, you know, you, you, you take the, you, you move away as you move away from where the Bible is super, super clear to areas of, of wisdom and judgment. There are brothers and sisters in other parts of the world who just, who just apply things differently, you know, like that.

You know, in the US A lot of believers would be against and maybe, and maybe for good reason, for prudential reasons, you know, against like universal health care. You know, there are other parts of the world where Christians are the ones who've spearheaded that. So, so it's just, it's not.

And I'm not, and again, I'm not saying anti or for.

I've actually seen, you know, government paid universal health care in places where it's really gone really poorly and then other places where culturally, because perhaps the size of the congregation or the way, the size of the country, not congregation, the size of the country or the, the demographics of the country or how it works, where it's actually been more effective than in other places. All of those are. But that's all debate that can be had. Right.

Whereas a lot of times in the US I think we tend to take certain political positions and we move away from principle of caring for the less fortunate, the needy, the sick, building hospitals, things like that, and we sort of harden into a particular view and it sort of begins to be seen as this is the really biblical view.

And anyone that would see this differently is probably, you know, we wouldn't question their salvation necessarily, but question their, their wisdom or their judgment or do they have, you know, and I think, I think opening up that global conversation then allows you to treat brothers and sisters, even in the United States that may have differences of opinion when it comes to, you know, some of those prudential political questions with more grace and charity. Because you recognize, yeah, I may have really strong convictions on this, but this isn't a, this isn't, you know, an area of orthodoxy. This is not.

This is not a pillar, so to speak. It's more of something that a church that, that the, you know, different people in a congregation could. Could see this differently, so they could.

Agree to disagree on. But there's some. Some judiciousness, I hope, some charity, as you said.

Yeah. And at the same time, it goes the other way.

A lot of Christians in the United States today want to say we can agree to disagree on issues related to the definition of marriage, for example. And in that situation, that's where basically the global church comes back and says, no, no.

And the church throughout history says, what are you thinking?

So, I mean, that sort of connection to the global church broadens your view on certain issues, but then also really narrows and targets your view on other issues where you recognize, no, we would be out of step not only with the church throughout the last 2,000 years, but also with the global church around the world if we were to make a change on this particular issue.

So that's why you need that perspective, so that you're able to have those conversations and to recognize what are the places where we really need to be able to say, here I stand, I can do no other.

And then where are those areas where it's like, yeah, I'm standing here and you're standing there, and it's okay, we're brothers and sisters and we can continue along in partnering in mission and all sorts of things. Those are issues, I think, where we really need the wisdom of church history and the global church.

I could not agree more with your assessment on that. But that also leads me to another question. Yes, we know the negatives.

We talk about the negatives all the time in the American church, and yet we want to solve those by. Or at least temper that, if you will, with the global church and understanding of church history. But what do you think that the modern American.

American church now is doing?

Well, well, you know, I think the modern American church does a lot of things well. There's a. There's a level of confidence. I mean, at times people would say it's almost abrasive because it's almost so aggressive.

And it's in the American church's. The American church's confidence in thinking it can influence the society for good. There's a lot of countries that don't have that.

So I, you know, I was talking with a Canadian friend who's a pastor not that long ago and was saying one of the things that he loves about American churches is that American churches really do believe they can impact society, whereas Canadian churches, the evangelical ones, anyway, a lot of times are just not. Not really. They're only seeing things on the local level, not really thinking about what they might be able to do long term.

So there's this sort of confidence and in the public witness of the. Of the faith that when. When. When done correctly, can lead to widespread societal change. And I think.

I think that you do see that in other parts of the world as well. But the. The American context may be somewhat unique in that. So I think that that's one of the strengths of the. Of the United States.

It's kind of the counterpoint to the weakness that I just mentioned. If the American church at times is too politicized as a weakness, the strength from that is the American church really does a lot of good.

And that's one of the beautiful things to look at when, you know, there are no headlines about this. But the American church is really good at caring for neighbors in distress and at disaster relief, for example.

I mean, some of the American churches are the ones that are running to places where suffering is taking place with arms outstretched faster than just about anyone else. And so that's beautiful. I think, you know, there's been a lot of conversation recently about, you know, the Roe v.

Wade decision with abortion and whatnot. But I mean, what.

What often doesn't get as much press or get as much focus is the fact that, you know, crisis pregnancy centers and pregnancy and family support centers outnumber abortion clinics 2 to 1 in the United States.

All across the country, there's been this, you know, this, this grassroots movement that's really spectacular to watch, funded by the church, you know, So I think. I think the American church does a. Really. Does a really good job in a lot of different areas that it doesn't get as much credit for that.

I think we should continue to fan the flames for those things and celebrate those wins.

I know that when we're talking about the American church and how it does that, it. It is always fascinating to me to see how the critics try to caricature and say, you should take care of the whole woman.

And there was a Twitter entry, it was maybe a year or two ago, where a woman had said that, and the response that she got from people saying what they had done caused her to make a public apology. And I thought that was just fascinating to see how many people have come around and done that.

And I would agree with you on that, continuing that kind of thread on the American culture and where things are headed Right now you wrote in your blog on Disney, why do we need to care about Disney?

Because I do know that there are a lot of Christians that care, that have young children that want to talk about it, but some who have been around for the last few decades. Remember the kind of boycott in the 90s, the late 90s, and how that really didn't have a greater effect.

And you write about this and you're saying this is a lot different than it was then. To now describe that, talk about that, what made you really want to, want to bring that out?

We know it's in the culture and the mindset of many people now, but what do we do and why do we need to talk about Disney?

Well, I mean, I think this conversation started because of Disney, not because of anyone else. I think there was a.

I mean, what precipitated all of these conversations recently about Disney were some of the, the creatives and the executives that were on certain teams that were basically saying they wanted to push a sexual ideology into the messaging for kids. So, you know, I mean, we've got all sorts of.

Corporate America has taken all sorts of positions, big companies take all sorts of positions on all sorts of stuff that we would disagree with. I think as Christians, some of it's just virtue signaling, but I mean, it happens.

I think the difference between Disney and like Pepsi, for example, is, you know, Pepsi can take whatever stand they want on particular issue or do a commercial that may, you know, offend our Christian sensibilities or whatnot. And yeah, people may choose not to, not to drink Pepsi or whatever, but they're not actually changing the product.

Like, they're not actually inserting something into Pepsi. Whereas Disney, it's different because it's, it's this trustworthy, family friendly entertainment juggernaut. Right?

I mean, that is an American institution that has an outsized influence on entertainment in the United States. I mean, we talk about kids, but we got to talk about everything from Star wars to Marvel to ABC to ESPN to Hulu.

I mean, it's not Disney is not just Disney World. It's. It's this massive conglomerate at this point. And there is outsized influence into entertainment.

And we know that entertainment shapes informs young minds. And no one has been more trustful, trusted than Disney when it comes to the minds of kids.

So when you've got people openly on video saying, you know, we want to basically insert, you know, the ideology of the sexual revolution into programming for kids in order to affect cultural change, well, yeah, that gets a lot of parents their alarm Bells going off. And now, I mean, in the defense of the creatives, the creatives would be saying, oh, we just want to increase representation. Right?

They don't really see it as a political thing. They see it as a moral obligation to show representation of all the different sexual identities out there.

But I mean, we're talking about entertainment programming for kids that generally has been very non sexualized, you know, for the most part. So that's what I think has gotten a lot of parents concerned.

And, you know, when I wrote about this, I wasn't writing about this to say you should boycott Disney or you should not boycott Disney or you should. All I wanted to say was, actually, this goes back further than you realize. And this is not.

If just now you're beginning to pay attention to the messaging that comes through Disney shows or Disney movies, you've not paid attention long enough.

And it's this way of life that says the purpose and meaning of life is to look deep inside yourself, to discover who you are, and then to follow the dreams of your heart and, and chase your dreams until you, you know, become and express whoever you were meant to be. That is, I mean, the philosophical term from that is expressive individualism.

It is the dominant narrative in most Disney movies, everything from the Little Mermaid, you know, even Aladdin to Mulan to whatever it might be from, even from the 90s. So my, my point in that, in that blog article was not to say, stop watching all the Disney movies, never listen to a Disney soundtrack.

I mean, we're fans of Disney at our house, as most families are, but to, to be able to have those deeper conversations where it may not have anything to do with sex or transgenderism or anything like that.

That, that philosophy of life that has taken root and is now common sense in society is something that is actually not the biblical view of the world. And so I wrote a book a couple of years ago called Rethink Yourself, which is about this very topic.

It was basically to say, hey, there is this way of looking at life that says you look in first, then you look around to others for affirmation, and then you look up to God for some kind of higher power inspiration or something like that to basically sanction the life that you've defined for yourself, yourself. The Bible's way of life is exactly Opposite of that, you look up first to God's design and his intent.

You look around to the people that he has placed in your path and then you look in to discover the best way that you live out, you know, Christian discipleship in a way that brings, that edifies the church and then brings glory to him. That is a very countercultural way of looking at life.

And unless you understand the differences between those two ways of life, you're going to the big challenge for the church today is unless we help people see that look in way of life versus that look up way of life, we're going to have people who are just looking in and they're basically following the Disney mantra with a little bit of God sprinkled on top and the church helping them to be everything that they've always wanted to be, rather than recognizing that their entire, their entire reason for existence is supposed to revolve around God at the center, not themselves at the center.

So I think the Disney conversation matters not just because it's about Disney, but because it's about this way that we look at life and helping us to like, be able to see through what passes for common sense in our society today and to have a better framework for thinking through that and allowing the Bible to, you know, to counter us at times and to counter that common sense way of thinking.

What do you see yourself in this, in this conversation about America? We're talking about the global church, we're talking about how we see ourselves.

I mean, these are all currents of thought that are carrying people along. And yet you're standing for biblical truth in the middle of that. What do you see yourself as your role right now? What has God called you to do.

In the middle of all this?

Yeah, so I mean, from a, from a vocational standpoint, I mean, I am excited to be at the North American Mission Board where I can think like a missiologist and then help to provide resources for pastors that will be free and will be useful in a lot of different areas, a lot of different ways to really serve planters and pastors in that way. For me, just backing up, you know, one step beyond just my day to day job.

I think, you know, the Lord has given me these opportunities through cross cultural mission work over the years to be able to see the culture that I've been placed in back in the United States, to be able to see that from the outside looking in.

So the opportunities I've had over the years have been formative in that I can come at society with a different set of eyes and lens to then look at society.

And then I think I look at myself as, let me help the American church as much as possible and American church leaders and thoughtful lay people in American congregations.

I want to help them see the culture and the society around them as the mission field, to be able for them to see the opportunities and challenges that we face here in a way that helps them be more effective. And so an aspect of that for me is popularizing higher shelf content and thought on some of those issues.

So, you know, if, if, if, if Tim Keller, for example, translates down this massive work of Charles Taylor, I want to be the guy who's maybe translating down even Tim Keller putting on one shelf lower just so that people without Bible knowledge, without, you know, the philosophical terms and things like that, can really understand what's going on and be able to be helped and to see American society for what it is and then be able to be more effective in mission and ministry in that way.

What final words of encouragement could you give to our listeners today?

You know, I take encouragement in the two areas that we talked about before, church history and the global church. I'm encouraged when I think about church history because I realize the church is always a mess. So, like the idea that truer words.

Have not been spoken.

I mean, you know, everyone joked about the pandemic and that word unprecedented with the church. It's like there's really hardly anything that's really unprecedented.

Right, right. There's nothing new under the sun, right?

No. Oh, you know, oh, the church needs reformation. Oh, really? That's a new one, you know? You know what I mean? So, I mean, this is, this is the. So if it.

And I.

It's just, they may be different, but they're going to be some challenges. So I take encouragement in that and I would leave people with that just sort of perspective. But then also, the global church is also the challenge.

There is also encouraging. You know, God is on the move. There's all sorts of amazing things that are happening right now around the world.

I mean, Christianity is exploding in other parts of the world, just exploding. And so there's a lot to take heart from. There's a lot of mess that's happening in other parts of the world, too.

So you look at that and say, well, you know, the American church doesn't have a corner on corruption. There's all sorts of problems that are happening all over the place. And at the same time is that explosive growth.

You know, it was the best of times and the worst of times. Charles Dickens says, and I kind of look at the American church and say, even today it's the same.

The way we'll tie this up by going back to Chesterton, though, a lot of times people think that the world or the world is either on this interminable decline, slide into this abyss, you know, or that the world is just getting better and better and better.

You know, the progressives tend to think of the themselves on the vanguard of the world, getting more and more and closer to this utopia, whereas a lot of times pessimistic types tend to look at everything and think everything's going crazy.

You know, I was having a conversation not that long ago with someone who said, you know, things are just so much worse than it was 60 years ago, immorally, and so many different areas, you know, and like, it's just slide. And I was like, yeah, in some of these areas, you're right.

And what Chesterton always says is, the world is not getting better or getting worse. There's one thing the world does, it wobbles. And so I just think, yeah, the world is wobbling.

And to have a sure foot and to be able to stay steady when the world is wobbling, you need to come back to the gospel, to the truth of the scriptures, and you need to be able to state your claim there. And, you know, a lot of people say, oh, you, you know, you Christian types are just digging in. We're not digging in, we're just standing.

And we can stand with confidence and we can stand with cheerfulness.

You don't have to be mad about it because there's a sense in which we know truth that stands the test of time, and we're confident that God's purposes for the world are going to be complete. We don't know they're going to be accomplished.

We don't know what it's going to look like but we trust that he's in control and we know what the end looks like.

That is a wonderful, wonderfully encouraging statement meant Trevin. I mean, just the whole thing to be able to, to realize that. Because I think you're right.

I think a lot of people do think that things are getting so much worse. What's going to happen? It's the woe is me. The whole world is on fire and. And yet God is still accomplishing his purpose.

And I said the same thing you have. It's, it's good on, it's bad on some levels and it's really good on other levels. And it's never, ever just a one time or one size fits all approach.

But I want to thank you so much for coming on the show. How can people follow along with what you're doing?

No, the easiest way to follow along for me is just if you go to my website. If you just go to trevinwax.com it'll take you to my column at the Gospel Coalition.

And at the end of every post, every article that I do there, there's a way to subscribe to my email list. And I like to send out all sorts of random stuff to my email list.

I mean, it's not random random, but it's just, you know, my articles I'll send out there, but then also just something I may be reading or I, you know, I'm a big classic TV fan, so I generally, once a week I'll have a classic TV clip, you know, and sometimes some links to some interesting stuff I've been, I've been seeing online or maybe, you know, a podcast recommendation per week. So, you know, it's just a place to keep in touch and for me to be able to connect with, with readers.

And it's one of the, the most fun things that I get to do. Is that so?

Well, that's awesome. I want to thank you for coming on. Apolloist watered.

Well, thank you for having me. It's been a joy.

We need God's guidance.

It seems that everywhere we turn today is another cultural landmine just waiting for us to step on it, blowing up and destroying everything around us.

That's why we are committed to help bring the best and most insightful voices to you because they can help us navigate the path of life successfully for Jesus. Whether we're talking about issues in human sexuality or a writer like G.K.

chesterton, or understanding the message and vision of life that Disney wants us to buy into, we need God's guidance. We need men and women who stand for God's truth and who will speak the truth to us and who see things that we most oftentimes miss.

And then that truth that they speak to us, we must in turn speak to others. That's what God has called us to.

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