#125 | Spiritual Warfare-Demonization & Deliverance, Pt 2 | Karl Payne

When it's a conviction of sin from the Holy Spirit, it's not to beat me into the ground in a way I can't ever get back on my feet. It's to pick me up, patch me up, clean me up, and throw me back out in the fight again.

It's watering time, everybody.

It's time for Apollo's Watered, a podcast to saturate your faith with the things of God so that you might saturate your world with the good news of Jesus Christ. My name is Travis Michael Fleming and I am your host. And today on our show, we're having another one of our.

Deep conversations.

Have you ever had those awful, self condemning thoughts that you just can't seem to escape? And they seem to enter your head just after you get out of bed in the morning?

You know, these are the thoughts that don't go away, no matter what season it is, no matter what thing you're dealing with, no matter what's going on at work. These might have been going on day after day, week after week, month after month, and even year after year.

Now it might be that you are facing more than you think. Here's what I mean. In today's deep conversation, we are continuing to talk with Carl Payne about the subject of spiritual warfare.

I know many people freak out whenever we talk about spiritual warfare. There are some who just think that everything is spiritual warfare and there's a demon for everything. But that's not the case.

I mean, we are full beings that have mental issues, physical issues, and there are spiritual issues that we deal with, and that there are spiritual realities that we are facing day after day.

And I invite you to go back and listen to the first part of my conversation with Carl because it really sets the stage for everything we're talking about today. Now, I do need to warn you that the audio is more than a little rough.

We tried our best to capture it, but for whatever reason, we had so many issues. In fact, we had more issues than any other conversation that we've ever had.

And I was sharing this with a friend of mine and he said, you know, Travis, I'm not surprised you had so many issues with this. It's because the enemy doesn't want you to share it.

And at first I thought, wait, is this just the person talking about demons, like seeing a demon and everything? And I realized, wait a minute, no, that's right.

The devil doesn't want people to talk about spiritual warfare because he's afraid that they might wake up and fight. That's why we're getting into this conversation. And today we really do get into the heart of the conversation I had with Carl.

Because every Christian faces times when we struggle, when the desire to sin is strong. I'm not going to deny that and I'm not going to say that everything is demonic.

But in today's episode, we really do start the conversation talking about what I like to call our struggling with the three headed dragon. Yes, you heard that right, the three headed dragon. And that is the world, the flesh and the devil.

Because the three fight together, they use one another. And when we're tempted, how do we know which one we're facing?

What do we do when the typical Christian answer is to read the Bible and pray don't seem to work? And why do we see overt demonic spiritual activity going on in other lands, but we don't seem to have that in our culture today?

You know, Carl tells us about his experiences in dealing with spiritual warfare, especially on the mental side of things, and what to look for and even how to respond to it. This is a powerful, powerful conversation and I know that you are going to be blessed because of it.

But before we dive in, I want to thank our awesome sponsors. The official Bible of Apollo, the new living translation. Because understanding the Bible changes everything.

And the NLT is the Bible you can understand. Happy listening. We've talked about our three enemies or we haven't talked about it, which is the world, the flesh and the devil.

And even in the book you did it this way. The world, the external solicitation to sin, the flesh, the internal solicitation to sin and the devil, the supernatural solicitation, the to sin.

Why was it important to outline those three in building the case for spiritual warfare?

I think it's because they're the three primaries that the Bible identifies that we need to learn how to recognize and respond to. Battle with the world, it happens. Battle with the flesh, it happens. And battle with supernatural, it happens. None of those should be a surprise.

The only way they become a surprise is if I said earlier, if I really focus on. I'm an expert on dealing with the flesh. But I've ignored the, you know, the other two. I go, then you better hope you only struggle with the flesh.

I've learned how to work with the world. I am a whiz bang. Dealing, identifying, responding to the world. As long as you don't get hit by the flesh, you're supernaturally.

My suggestion was learn how to recognize all three. I point that out because solicitation from the world is always External. We're not supposed to say always and never. It's always external.

It can be billboards, it can be music. The eye gate, you know, the lust, the flesh lust, the eyes, boastful pride of life. These are all from the world.

The one that says he loves God and loves the world doesn't really sacrifice the word there. Doesn't really sacrificially love God, because you can't love God in this world.

So I'll say, you know, it's one thing to recognize I am being solicited. I was driving down the highway, I wasn't thinking about being thirsty. I see a big sign that says, richie's Diner, Coca Cola on ice.

Pull in in a mile, and all of a sudden I look at my wife and say, I'm thirsty. Let's go in and get a Coke and then we'll get back on the road. That was solicitation. That was external. It wasn't internal.

It was external, but it was triggering a physiological desire that I have. I mean, you can use sex, food, you can use something to drink, whatever. I say, marketers use it all the time. By the billions of dollars, it works.

I say, why wouldn't the other side use that? It works. The flesh. We've said, you know, it's internal solicitation. I've said it this way.

I don't know who all your audience is, but I do not have to have a naked woman in front of me to in my mind undress a woman. I'm perfectly capable from something inside. Paul says in. In Romans 7, 4 times, he identifies it as evil.

It's within him that he doesn't always do what he wants. He does sometimes does things he doesn't want. In Galatians 5:17, the Spirit War is against the flesh, the flesh against the spirit.

They're within you, so you can't do this. In other words, it's an internal battle. I said, well, someone can say I got solicited externally.

I go, well, the response there in verse 17 of First John 2 is you identify the solicitation. You evaluate the solicitation and you say, you know what? The things of this world fade away. The things of God abide forever.

I'm not giving away eternal treasure for trash. When I'm dealing with the flesh. I'm told, 2nd Timothy 2, 22 Ron, if it's too hot, I'm told in Ephesians 4:22, 24, you renew your mind.

You know, put off the old man, put on the new through the renewing of your mind, your thinking is just sloppy. Or we're told in Galatians 5, 16, when you learn to walk controlled by the spirit, you won't carry out the strong desires of the flesh.

My point is this. When I'm dealing with the world, I'm told to evaluate the situation and choose the eternal principle. You make your list if you want to.

This is a bad idea. When I'm dealing with the flesh, when I'm. I'm not told to sit and evaluate it.

I'm told, ron, if it's too hot, I'm also told, you need to start cleaning things up in your head, because when you lose in your head, you'll end in your life.

But doesn't say that a Christian always is going to be seeing the fruit of the spirit or never seeing the fruit of the flesh. That's addressed to believers. So then when I deal with the demonic, I go, well, I'm told, resist. That's the. You resist. I stand against. I.

I oppose you. You know, Peter says in chapter five, resist the devil firmly in your faith, he will flee from you.

James, the half brother Jesus says, resist the devil, he will flee from you. In 4, 7. Paul writes in chapter 6 13. That whole, that whole chapter in Ephesians is telling you after three chapters of great theology.

No, he's saying, this is who you are in Christ. Why Chapter four, here's how I should look in the church.

Chapter five, here's how it should look in your home or employer, with your kids, your husband and wife. Chapter six, don't forget all this good stuff. You've got an enemy and you're not. Your ultimate battle is not against flesh and blood.

Why in the world where people go, how interesting. You think he really means that? Give me a break. Yes, he does. Unless you're just not wanting to see it. You can spiritualize it. He didn't. He didn't.

It's real. So what am I suggesting? He says there to do everything you can to stand against the same word, to stand against. To resist.

So I'm thinking with the flesh, I'm told, run in second Timothy 2, 22, but against the demons, I'M told, resist and fight them. Is there a difference between resisting and running? There's a huge difference in those responses. They're antithetically opposite one another.

Then if I throw in the flesh about you, evaluate, what are you being solicited with? And then you remind yourself, the things of this world pass away. They can look pretty, they just don't last for very long.

So choose eternal perspective. I'm saying depending on how I'm being solicited, I'm given three different ways, at least to respond.

Evaluate with the world, with the flesh, run, renew, or find out what it means to walk. Controlled by the spirit and with the demonic, I'm consistently told, resist you oppose you fight.

I'm suggesting if I don't know how I'm being hit, I don't know whether I run or resist. I don't know whether I start memorizing scripture to renew my mind or I lace up my Nikes and run like crazy because I'm in over my head.

So when Christians give me this kind of a tube sock response, and I know they mean well, it sounds like I've probably sounded more cynical in some of this than I am. My brothers and sisters in Christ, we're going to spend heaven. You know, I love them promoting for them, not against them.

That's why I usually won't let people pull me into battles against one another. I usually won't fall for that.

But when they say it's a tube sock thing, Travis, as long as you are reading your Bible and memorizing scripture, it's going to be just fine. And then just be sure you're praying.

I say, except for the people that are being bombarded, whether it's the world, flesh, devil, some combination of them.

And they're saying, travis, every time you as a pastor tell me, as long as I'm reading and praying and memorizing, things should be fine, but they aren't fine.

So I feel like I'm on the inside because I know I've responded to Christ, but I feel like I'm on the outside looking in because it never works for me. So I just quit going to church after a while. Just say, jesus, I hope you come back sooner than later. I'll hold on to the knot.

But why would I tell Travis about what it's like to know Jesus when I feel like I am such an utter fucking failure at it most of the time anyway? So I just go isolated and quiet.

Talking about the world, the flesh, and the devil.

When you get into the demonic part let's get into that, because on this show we've talked a lot about the world and we've talked a lot about our flesh. And you've already alluded to it because sometimes those lines between them are very blurred. Sometimes it's hard to tell.

And as I remember, the Puritans used to give the illustration that the devil was a fisherman, just like Jesus was. And he used the. What did he call it? The. The bait of your flesh on the hook of the world. And all three work together in some way.

But let's talk about the devil and the demonic aspect of things. Let's really try to delve into that for a bit.

Explain that for a bit.

Well, what I'm talking about there is that Satan is smart enough to know how to approach people. I was on a moody program just recently, and question came up, I got a phone call here in my office, same question came up.

And bottom line was, how come it seems like in some places demonic warfare is so blatant? There are manifestations. It's in your face, it's poking, it's prodding, it's scaring you, it just. It just freaks you out.

And then other places, it's like, I never see any of that. I mean, that just. I don't understand that. I've never experienced any of that.

So we say, well, then I guess the demonic warfare is relegated to developing countries in the third world, so missionaries better learn how, because it seems like that's where it's more blatant. But here in our country, until recently, I already said we're moving more and more as a. We've become a banana republic, I'm afraid.

You know, morals and ethics and all, they're gone in this country. We're not in the process of being secularized. We are thoroughly secularized. But at any rate, back to your question. See, I would say this.

If I live in a.

In a place where what is championed is empiricism, rationalism, you know, the real thinkers, you know, they're probably not Christians because Christians believe in the supernatural anyway, so how could they be thinkers because.

Or they should believe in the supernatural anyways?

Yes. Well, if I am in a place where the in your face kind of things that you Hear about with missionaries and such, it would just be denied.

It would wake somebody up. Somebody would have. Somebody would have to go, what in the world just happened? Instead of being able to hide behind it.

And because we're motivated, I think a lot by pride in the Western, Western world, I think that fear is the primary motivator in many countries overseas.

So if I'm a very smart demon, since I know they're motivated by fear, because this God is greater than this God, and the tribal God of this, the God of the rivers are better than the gods of the fruit trees, I use fear and intimidation because they're already wired that way. If I am in a country where we want to ignore all of that or have a different answer for any of that explanation, I want to lay in the weeds.

I want to do my work. But I'll always give you a reason to say, oh, that's not real, or that's not coincidental, or they're just drama kings and queens.

Because none of that. Because, hey, if you can't put it in a test tube, you know, if you can, then it's not.

Wasn't it Hume, you know, if you can't test it rationally, then it's not. It's not worth studying anyway, you know.

And so I think because of where we live and the general worldview, I think this country has been sheltered more from the blatant stuff because it would be a stupid demon to wake people up. But overseas, you see just the opposite. You see it blatant. Let me give you one quick example, and I'm cutting you on your question.

I don't mean to remember your question. I had a pastor call me working with Eskimos in Alaska.

And he said I worked him through how to work with this because he just said, man, the animism, the demonism, it is everywhere. And he said, we call them the little people up here. And I said, the little people? Yeah, they're demons that manifest themselves and it's real.

And if you ever told people up here that that stuff isn't real, you would have no testimonies of Christian because they would say, if you're that wrong on that, how could you be right about anything else? Now, what he said was the only major church in our whole area, in the church that comes from the same institution that we were talking about earlier.

And with a pastor that says none of this is real, this just is not real, he cannot figure out why the people do not want to come to that church and stay away in droves and he said, I can tell you as a missionary up there, when they live with this stuff every day and the only pastor in a reasonable area says none of this is real. They have written him off as a total idiot who clearly doesn't understand, so why would we go to your church?

So he said, I'm trying to help them understand. All Christians aren't committed to that kind of a paradigm that he's committed to.

There are actually some of us that would acknowledge this stuff is real. It is real. So the missionaries having a bigger impact than the pastor because the pastor doesn't know it.

He's just standing on what he's been taught, but he doesn't know what he's talking about. And he doesn't understand. He's running the people way who are the very people he's trying to invite in.

And it leaves the missionary scratching his head going, he doesn't get it.

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I've interacted with a lot of different people, but I also think the devil doesn't use the same playbook to different people. You know, just like you were with the Seahawks, you're going to play one team fast and tight, you're going to play the other one.

You know, they got a pass game, the other one you're going to rush because you know the quarterback can't take it. And so you know. Exactly.

So there's this idea of fear where Huxley said, we won't need him because the pleasure is so high, we won't go to him. And I think that's what's going on here. But I think that the facade of that is starting to fail.

As you're seeing what the demonic world does, you're seeing with everything with lbgtq, you see, I mean, and people need to be loved. They've been deceived. They've been deceived as they've given over to the flesh.

They've listened to a lot of this, and churches have not addressed these issues. And it's not everything in that way. I mean, there's a lot of different pieces that fit to this. But in, in. In our stance in the past, we've.

We've thrown out the proverbial baby with the bathwater.

And that's why I think it's imperative that we listen to the global church, because they know that this is real and we need to recover a good theology of it. Because when people say, why are we at the mess we're in? Why are we in the mess we're in? I mean, you could pick a whole host of issues.

Where are the prayer meetings? Where are the people that are battling on their knees? Where are those people that are fasting?

Where are those spiritual tools that we've been given over the years to fight with? Now everyone wants to fight politically.

And it's like, well, we don't wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the principalities, powers, and authorities in the heavenly realms.

I agree. What you shared was just powerful. You're right. You're spot on. I would agree with what you shared. I might add something, though, and I see this is.

I think it's discouraging would be the wrong word, because I try not to let other people's mistakes drag me down or then just both of us are drugged down.

But I try and recognize there's no question that the whole politicizing with the church can have some people just totally turned off because they just see it as a moose meeting, a political meeting, an Elks meeting, a church meeting. What's the difference? Except, you know, how often we give our dues and stuff. If the. If.

Remember Paul in Galatians 1 and I don't care if it's an angel that says he's coming out of heaven. If he preaches to you a gospel different than the one that we shared in other gospel, they should be divinely cursed.

We are not supposed to come off our mission period. But see, I think there's something else too. I don't think it's just the politicizing you see in church.

I think it's something that I think is more subtle. I think that the started out with high bulls, as I remember, with the, you know, the friendly. You know, we're going to be the friendly gospel.

You know, we're going to be the happy, happy gospel. Or as your cat down in. Down in Houston, Texas, Olsteen, you know, with a happy gospel, we don't talk about a bloody gospel.

And people are going, oh, yeah, I mean, that's right. We don't talk about war. We don't even use metaphors of warriors and soldiers. Or.

See, I get hit especially with the younger ones, and everybody's young. It's just that when I'm young, I haven't figured out even all the questions to ask. I still don't ask. I still don't know all the answers to ask.

And the questions are answered. But I sure know a heck of a lot more of them than I did when I was 23 and 24 and 25, fresh out of school.

And, you know, I take my studies serious and I'm ready to roll. But I think there's such a push now about. It's not about truth, it's about relationships. And you can be so strong in the area of truth.

And you can, you can. Well, if you said parse Greek verbs, they wouldn't know what you're talking about.

So they wouldn't say that, but they would say, you can just know your Bible and quote verses and all the rest. But if you're just a sterile, sterile person and all you want to do is take people the Bible, like, man, you gotta wake up.

People don't care about that anymore. We are a loving church. I go to. I go to speak somewhere and I'm told again, heterosexual, homosexual, you know, Paul's.

Paul's very clear in Romans that any kind of sin outside of marriage is sin. So I. I don't. I don't try and say, let's just pick on heterosexuals who are living in adultery or homosexuals who are living. It's like if it's.

If it's sexual sin, it's sexual sin.

No matter what form it is, right?

That's right. So I've been to conferences where they say, pastor, I sure hope you're not going to talk about.

And then they'll give me topics and I'll say, actually, I hadn't planned on that. I'm either talking about transferable discipleship or spiritual warfare.

Well, we want people to know that we're a loving church and we're not a homophobic church, we're not a xenophobic church. You know, we're not a bigoted church, we're not a racist church. We just love everybody.

And once they get to see how kind and nice and loving we are, then they're going to want to become Christians. So we're loving them into the kingdom instead of like those Bible thumper people that are always using Bible versions.

And I said, so you're an elitist. Everyone else gets it wrong except you. You're the only one that's figured out how the gospel is to be shared.

If it's not done the way you do it, how are you any different than the people you're making fun of right now?

And I'm saying, how about instead of laying this out as a straw man, like is usually done, there's either someone that is the most loving Christian that you've ever met and they just mow your yard and they're just great and they can lead you to Jesus without even saying a word. I've never seen that happen. Travis, the gospel has to be verbalized. So first I challenge that. How do you lead people to Christ without saying a word?

And then there's this other person, goes to church and Sunday he's memorizing verses and his kids are straight laced. But you know, I heard that he drinks on the side.

You give a bad example of one, a great example of another, and then say, this is how we're supposed to do it. And I have said we have become so conformed to the world that we live in that most people don't know there's a difference.

And instead of them saying, I won them to Jesus without saying a word, by my life. But first, if you're not walking the life, you're not walking the way Christ told you. So I'm all about that.

You know, we're supposed to live our life, walk our life. So it's not just hypocritical sterility.

But on the other hand, when you want to move the other stuff so far out because you want people to think, man, we are just, we are the Most loving church. Why you? Will you believe in A? Well, so do we. You believe in B. Well, so do we. You don't like D. Well, we don't like. I mean, we'll agree on everything.

And I say what ends up happening is instead of them saying, man, I see Jesus in you and I want Jesus, they say, I wish I had your personality. You are just the most easygoing, loving person. I just wish we had more people like you, Pastor.

And I'm saying, yes, there's the politicizing that I think has taken us off mission some, but I think there's also the change in a direction to where instead of. I mean, I don't want to be hated, Travis, but when Jesus said they hated me, they're going to hate you.

And I thought Jesus did everything perfectly and they crucified him. So if someone says, if I just do everything right, so people like me, man, that's real Christianity.

I said, well, maybe they'll crucify you like they did Jesus. Unless you're going to tell me Jesus did something wrong. Did Jesus do something wrong? Was he loving and kind? Yes, he was.

Did he constantly go to the book? Was his bottom line taking Pharisees back to again? Well, maybe it's both and instead of either.

Or maybe it's truth and relationships instead of laying it out as truth or relationships. So many wonderings.

I have always been amazed at the songs that we sing each generation. And one of the things that I've always tried to do wherever I've been, the pastor, is try to reinvigorate the.

I hate to say the bloody songs, but the old rugged cross, talking about the power in the blood and to realize there is a real crucifixion and there's real sin that has taken place and we cannot remove that. The love of God is where we have Christ, who loves us so much that he would go to the cross while we were the ones that were guilty.

I mean, we were the ones that were horrific. We deserved that. And he took that in our place. And that our world today finds such a stumbling block like it did in the ancient world.

We cannot remove the stumbling block of the cross. We have to keep that first and foremost.

But going back for a moment, talking about demonic warfare, you mentioned in one of the chapters how confrontation works. Now this is where we're really getting into the how to with. With folks because they might give a tacit agreement. Yes, I believe in spiritual warfare.

Yes, that I know that it's real. It still becomes different when you Actually get into the nuts and bolts and what that is.

So let's talk for a moment on how confrontation works within this demon warfare. What is this and how do we go about it?

I guess I would say something like this.

I would say that at least my subjective experience and those that I have worked with, that have spent a long time working with this would agree with what I'm going to say. I'm sure there would be other people that wouldn't. Again, as long as they're working with it, I'm not going to call them out.

I'm just going to say stay faithful. But I have seen that most of the demonic warfare with the people I have worked with is mental. Now, I have worked with people where it's physical.

And the Bible certainly gives place for both. Certainly, you know, you think of the mental. I think of Second Corinthians 11, 1 through 4. You know, put up with me.

I'm the one that led you to Christ. You're walking the purity and your devotion to Christ. So Paul said, I'm your spiritual dad. You are doing well, walking in pure your faith.

I'm concerned for you now. Least as the serpent deceived Eve, in her mind, you are being deceived for. You're talking now about a Jesus that I didn't talk to you about.

You're involved with spirits other than the one you had received. Well, the one they'd received was the Holy Spirit.

So if they're now involved with other spirits other than the one they receive, that's not the good guys, that's bad guys. And you're promoting a gospel that I didn't preach to you. And. And then you don't even fight. You're passive about it. I mean, do you.

Do you see mental warfare? Sure you do. It's interesting. Ties it right back to Eve, where we know it was the serpent. We know he's identified as the devil.

In the book of Revelation, in a chapter where the serpent who bothered Eve and what was the battle? It was mental. Has God really said, is God really good? Why don't, you know. Series of questions that she's thinking through.

And yet then I look at Luke, chapter 13, a woman who is called a daughter of Abraham, which Galatians 7 would say she's part of the real faith. Galatians 3:7. She wasn't identified as a follower of Moses. She was identified as a child of Abraham.

The faith of Abraham, which is where we are as believers. Same thing with Nicodemus in Luke 19. This son of Abraham after he had believed. Right. How was she bothered?

Well, for 18 years, Jesus said a spirit had bent her over physically. Or you look at Paul in 2nd Corinthians 12.

I know people don't like to hear about that, especially coming out of a different camp, but I'll say, read the language. An angel from Satan, which is what the original language says, an angel from Satan was sent to buffet me.

And I asked God three times, can you make this stuff stop? And God says to me, my grace is sufficient, because, you know, you are allowed to see things that no human being should see.

And I'm making sure that you don't exalt yourself, blah, blah, blah. What I'm saying is, do you see in the New Testament examples of mental battle with demons? Yes, you do.

Do you see examples of physiological battle with demons? Yes, you do. I'm telling you that what I have worked with has been probably 90 10, where the battle more often is mental.

And I think that it morphs sometimes from the mental to the physiological. I think it goes on long enough. But it's this kind of thing, brother.

I think I said this earlier, although sometimes I take off and then forget what I've said or which interview I'm doing. Did I say that to you or someone else? That's kind of embarrassing, but it's more like what Eve went through. It's like, has God really said.

It's like, why do you trust someone? Because if he loved you, he wouldn't let you go through this anyway. Jesus isn't real.

You've lost your salvation if you ever had it in the first place. Why do you pray? Your prayers are never answered. They bounce off the ceiling. Why do you read your Bible? You don't get anything from it.

It's never going to change. Doesn't the Bible say that the greatest love you could ever demonstrate for a friend is to lay your life down?

Well, your life is such a horrible, horrible example of Christianity that your neighbors are stepping away from Christ or over Christ because they see you and you can't get it right. So how about you take yourself out?

Someone would see that as being selfish, but you would know in your heart you were doing this as an act of love so future people would not miss Christ because you don't seem to be able to walk with Him. It's like glorifying suicide, but it's this constant mental. You don't measure up. You said.

Travis, you said you were going to pray for the missionaries. Well, you forgot yesterday to pray for all of Them you prayed for 50, but you didn't pray for 52.

So if you're going to lie to God, why should he keep his end of the bargain of confess, of forgiving your sin? Because if you're going to lie to him, he's so disappointed in you. So you confessed that yesterday, but confess it again today.

So I confess it again today. God, I am so sorry. I didn't mean to lie to you about the missionaries. But you know, I guess we had a bargain going and I didn't keep my end.

So I'm going to bring this back to you and so please forgive me for whatever it was I did in Jesus name. You immediately get a thought. Why did you pray a second time about what God answered the first time?

Unless you don't believe God answered it the first time. Why, that's unbelief. Doesn't James 1 say you're double minded? You ought not to expect your prayers are going to be answered?

How can Jesus answer your prayers when you don't even believe he answers them? Well, I thought you were the one Holy Spirit telling me to pray that again.

Why would the Holy Spirit tell me to do something that contradicts scripture? He's forgiven. It's gone. I had a brother say to me, I know that I am forgiven when I can feel the bricks fall off my back.

I said, okay, why are you here? Because I've had something that's besetting and the bricks don't fall off my back. So I don't have the freedom to follow Christ.

I'm not making this very true, but I'm telling you, I said, what did Jesus do when you confessed your sin? First John 1:9. What's he say he does? He's faithful and just to forgive and cleanse.

And yet you have put a hoop on that and said, until you feel the bricks come off your back, then your prayer wasn't effective. I said, my question is, if God keeps His word, how does he take bricks off your back that are no longer there?

Because when you confessed your sin, he removed them. But you're saying, I'm not going to live like I can walk with Christ until I feel Him. Who do you think is stacking bricks back on your back?

You got to play the same game and say, I'm not forgiven unless I cry. Well, that works for a crier. But people that aren't wired that way, guess what.

Well, I guess since Sister Bertha said that, you really know that you are fully repentant, not just partially repentant. When you cry. Well, then I guess I was just half repentant because I didn't cry. So I guess I better confess again to prove that I was fully repented.

Is God omniscient or not? Yes, he is. Quit adding the hoops.

You're going to be the same person that tells me I can't know I'm saved unless I speak in tongues, or I can't know I'm filled with the Holy Spirit unless I have a gift of prophecy, or I can't know I'm saved unless I've switched my worship day back to Saturday because that's the real Sabbath. Or I can't know I'm saved unless I'm a vegetarian eating a diet. I mean, how many hopes do you put on?

For God so loved the world he gave his only begotten Son.

Whoever believes, whoever transfers their trust where it was into Christ as your Savior, the forgiveness, the one who paid your sin, when did he do it? When you believe. No, you keep adding all these hoops after it. Well, I'm saying that the devil is a master at adding hoops.

So you say you're going to pray, but it wasn't sincere enough. You were going to pray for the missionaries, but you forgot some of them.

You said you were going to do this or that, but you're a liar because you did that, do that. Why do you even pray anymore? You're going to get it wrong anyway. It's this mental battle. Either Jesus isn't enough or you're not enough.

Either Jesus isn't sufficient or you're not sufficient. Because no matter what you do, there's something that wasn't done. Which means then you still can't walk with God.

You still don't have any joy because you're a failure. You're always a failure, and it's never going to change. So if someone says to me, what do I see in the battle?

Yes, I've worked with people where there were physiological things and we dealt with demonic stuff, and those physiological things stopped. I've seen that. But more often than not, Solomon got it right in 23:7 and Proverbs. This man thinks in his mind. So is he.

If I can control your thinking, it's just a matter of time till I'm controlling your actions. So why does the devil spend so much time with the mental games?

Because once I'm listening to him and assuming that's the Holy Spirit talking to me, he's got a captive audience. Or once I'm listening to him, And I'm convinced the Holy Spirit doesn't even live in me because I'm not really even saved.

Because if I was really saved, how could you have a besetting sin if you're really saved? You know, I hear all the time, if I'm fully repentant, there's no besetting sins. I'm going to suggest that maybe nobody's saved, Right? No, no, no.

That's not. That's not what we're saying. I say, why do you think in first John, chapter one, he rolls. In verses two, one through two, he's talking to Christians.

Verse eight, if you say you don't sin, you're deceiving yourself. Verse 9, if you sin, here's how you confess it and deal with it. Verse 10, if you say you've never sinned, you're calling God a liar.

So if you're going to tell me you're sinlessly perfect, I'm going to say, I want to talk to you, Rice, or want to talk to your kids. Yeah, yeah, we'll find out about that. Then they'll say, well, I guess I make mistakes.

I go, okay, but in the first two verses in chapter two, I don't write these things because I want you to sin, but when you do, I want you to remember you've got an advocate, a defense lawyer in Christ, and he's going to plead your case if I can just control your thinking. So you know what I do, Travis? I bother you until you can't sleep. I bother you until you're just so troubled.

And then once you can't sleep and I disrupt your sleep, now I get you so rummy and dummy, you start making bad decisions because you're just tired. And then the thoughts before about, I don't think Jesus loves you because he must hate me. And are you sure you're a Christian?

Maybe you didn't pray it just right now it's, God never came in your life in the first time because you don't do anything right. It's a mental bombardment. So when I say, how does it work? Usually it's a bombardment mentally, and you're always on the bottom.

Paul calls it fiery arrows in 6, 16, John in Revelation 10, 12, 10 and 11, he says, it's like an accuser who stands before God 24, 7, always accusing you. I'm saying that the mental accusation and the fiery arrows are one the same thing, just two. Apostles explain them differently.

So how do I recognize it? Usually it's that mental battle that won't Quit going on long enough and take your life.

Because that would do God more of a favor than your miserable, terrible Christian testimony that you have. How do you work with it? I don't know if you want me to walk through that or not. I don't know how far you want me to get into that.

I want to talk about that, but I also want to get to the ground rules when we actually confront a demonic aspect of things. But I want to stay on the mental for a bit because I'm curious about myself. I'm seeing some of this stuff and I'm like, oh, no, what's going on?

My wife is. I'm sure my wife is going to listen and go, this is you. This is you. And are you paying attention to this? I know she's going to do that.

So I want you to walk through because I know so many people hear that. They hear those voices of condemnation in their mind. I mean, so often we hear about that.

And the world, though, doesn't hear those voices through a demonic aspect. They just say, oh, that's just yourself. You know, you're saying these voices.

I want to know, how do you differentiate between a conviction of sin where the Holy Spirit's there, And I know you've had these questions before, but the conviction of sin and a demonic accusation, how do you differentiate between those two things?

Great question. I'd say a couple of different things.

I would say, one, when it's a conviction of sin from the Holy Spirit, it's not to beat me into the ground in a way I can't ever get back on my feet. It's to pick me up, patch me up, clean me up, and throw me back out in the fight again.

So when it's the Holy Spirit, it's always very specific, Carl, you need to confess this as sin. Fill in the blank, whatever it is. I know now it's just an issue of obedience. Will I do it or not?

When it's demonic accusation, it's usually close enough to something I might have done that I'll bite on it. But I can't quite put my feeling. I can't quite. Carl, you hurt your wife's feelings.

Confess your sin today, an hour ago, last night, a month ago, a year ago. See, it just leaves me with more questions because I don't under. What is it? So I'm saying the other side is close enough.

Then it'll suck me into this mental hamster wheel where I just go round and round, but I don't know how to get off. I Just finally get tired and say, forget. It doesn't work running on this wheel. The spirit of God.

The whole idea is to bring me to repentance where I confess my sin and then he dusts me off and says, now let's get back into the fight. So that would be one answer. One answer would be, where is it coming from? Another one, you see, you'll like this.

Okay, I'm looking forward to this.

I told people, start listening to pronouns and they'll say, what do you mean? And I'll say, demons do not speak to Christians. Typically, in a first person pronoun, decline the verb to be a present tense. I am, you are.

He, she, it is we are, you are, they are, we. Process in a first person singular pronoun. I am glad we got to do this interview together today.

At least hopefully will end this time by saying, I should have. I should have got some coffee before I sat down at my desk because I am dead tired. I hope I don't sound like a rummy dummy zombie.

I should have done more homework last night. I knew I had to be in early and I watched TV too late and I got into work late and I feel like such a fool. That is how we naturally process.

Because it's us. We're the ones when it's, you're right. They call it self talk or a spirit guide. Who's your friend? Oh, I love that.

At school you're going to meet your spirit guide where we're quiet, we'll meet our spirit guide. I'm going to tell you there are people being introduced to demons through that stuff.

But the second person, it's like, since demons aren't us, but they do communicate to us. It's mental. Tip. As I said, most of the time it's mental. Sometimes it'll lock in on something physical, but most of the time it's mental.

And so I've said, listen, if it's I stayed up too late and I feel foolish, I will own that. Travis, you stayed up to last night. You're an idiot because you knew before you even went to bed. You were supposed to be getting more sleep.

How can you call yourself a Christian and do something like that? You failed God again. It's a second person. It's connected, condemning. It's condescending. No matter what I do, I was wrong.

I'll give you a quick example I use in that book. So maybe this is being repetitive.

I had a beautiful, beautiful lady fly in from LA who is the wife of a professional athlete that didn't come out right. The wife of a professional athlete had asked me if I would talk with her friend. Said she's her own worst enemy. She's our own worst enemy.

I said, lovely Christian. But she doesn't get it. And no matter what she does, it wasn't good enough. And it's wrong. Okay. She slit her wrist, tried to kill herself.

I'm sorry to hear that. She's now in a lockup situation for observation. She didn't succeed. We would like to fly her down to Seattle to see her up. You know, coming from la.

Sorry. We would like to fly her up to see you. And you'd be well to talk with her. Only if she wants to talk. I don't want to talk with her.

She doesn't want to talk. That's. That's a waste of time. Yes, she. She does. She wants to talk with you. So she flies up.

I said, if I could crawl into your head, what would I hear? And she dropped her head down.

And I said, listen, I'm sure there's stuff that's embarrassing for all of us, but if you were drastic enough to try and take your life and you're willing to fly up here, how about we just be honest? I don't talk about names. You don't have to worry about that. No one's going to track this back to you. Well, it's always the same.

I'm fat, I'm ugly, I'm stupid, I'm damaged goods. Jesus doesn't really love me. He didn't really come in my life. I've committed a blasphemy, and I don't even know what blasphemy means.

But I keep hearing you blaspheme God, so you're damned. What is blasphemy? Why would I think I blasphemed if I don't even know what blasphemy is? But I hear that in my head. It's never going to change.

You'd be better off killing yourself. Then you'd be doing God a favor. I'm going to bet you started losing sleep. Yes.

Once I started losing sleep, then it got even worse because I got rummy, dummy. I have to lose more weight. I'm too fat. I've got to lose weight. Just same now. I said to this person, I said, will you slow the tape down?

She said, what do you mean? I said, you've heard this tape so many times, you know where it's going. You can anticipate it. Even slow the tape down.

Tell me Word for word, same thing. She said, well, I just called you. Weren't you listening? I said, yes, I was listening. So I said, humor an old geezer. Same tape, Slow it down.

Tell me word for word. She said, okay, I get up in the morning, I go into the restroom, I look in the mirror, and the first thing I think is, your eyes are evil.

And then as I'm looking in my eyes and thinking in my head, your eyes are evil and you're fat and you need to lose weight, and you're ugly, and you don't deserve the work that you did, and you're damaged goods, and it's never going to change. And if Jesus really loved you, why would he not come in and help you? Because your prayers bounce off the ceiling.

Then she looked right back at me and she said, it's what I told you. I'm fat, I'm ugly, I need to lose weight. I'm damaged goods. Jesus doesn't love me. I'm not sure if he came in or out. It's the same thing.

I said, why'd you flip the pronouns? And she said, I don't even know what a pronoun is. I was not very good in English, so I declined the verb to be.

And I said, when I asked you, what were you hearing? Everything was first person. I'm fat, I'm ugly, I'm damaged goods, blah, blah, blah. When I said, slow it down, everything came out well.

I looked and I heard, your eyes are evil and you need to lose weight because you're fat and no one's going to love you, and you're never going to have a husband because you're damaged goods and it's never going to change. And then you looked at me and said, it's just like I told you. I'm fat, I'm ugly, I'm damaged goods. I said, you flipped the pronoun, didn't you?

I said, what do you hear? She said, in my head, it's always you and it's me. And I said, you've been hearing this so long, you flip the pronouns.

You just figure, I guess that's me. And so you insert I. Because since only crazy people would be imagining, you know, I mean, I'm fat, I'm ugly, that is. She just burst into tears.

And she said, it's been since I was 4. I said, that's when you were sexually abused. I normally wouldn't go there right off the bat with someone, but she'd just flown in after trying.

She looked over at her friend and her friend said, I didn't tell him that. She said, how did you know I was sexually abused? And I said, well, you keep saying you're damaged goods.

And then you tell me you've been hearing this since you were 4 or 5, and you've known from the time you were 4 or 5 that you don't deserve anything good because you're bad. And I'm guessing somebody sexually abused you. And she said, yeah, as a family member. My mom didn't believe me.

It went on for almost six years before I was finally able to stop it. But I've heard ever since that started, you're never going to have a husband. You're damaged goods. No one loves you. This is all your fault.

Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And she said, and you're right, it is you. It isn't. I. I'm the one that's flipped it because it's just become so familiar to me.

If I told that story in any church across this, if they invited me in for a conference at church and I went through some of that, I would have people start doing this. Even when they're not conscious, they're doing this. And I would have people going, wow.

See, it isn't that they're not solicited, they just don't realize when they're being solicited. And the solicitation can be physical, but it's usually mental. Hey, Jesus, bow down and worship me and I'll give all of this to you.

Hey, Jesus, go to the highest point of the temple, jump off and angels will hold you up so you know you won't die, and the people will finally know your messiah. Hey, Jesus, you're hungry. Turn the rocks into bread. You don't have to wait to walk into town. You can feed yourself.

Now, did Jesus ever say, la la la la la. I'm not really hearing this. I'm not being solicited. This isn't real. Because the devil is a figment of the imagination of a bunch of primitive people.

No, he knew it was real. He knew he was being solicited. He just didn't go along with it. Bow down and worship me. You worship God and him only. Get lost.

This conversation's over. I'm not going to spend two hours going through this because it'll just get worse for me. I've done it too many times.

No matter what happens, I always end up depressed. Oh, you're depressed.

Well, we can get you taken care of for depression, you know, we can get you some uppers, you know, so you won't, you know, you'll feel better. Then we'll probably have to give you sleeping pills to get you back down because the amphetamines take you up. We can start that game.

And then it's like, well, why would a real Christian. No, I'm not opposed to prescriptions. I'm all for good psychiatrists, psychologists. I'm all good for good MDs. I refer people to them. So I'm not.

It's all demons on the other side. I think sometimes my blood. My buddy Dr. Mike Schill's got a good book that's going to be coming out, Clinical Psychology.

He says, we are so quick to prescribe because we don't assume it could be spiritual because none of our training trains us for it to be spiritual. And he said, you know what I've learned, Carl?

There's a whole lot of it that really is demonic and that we as counselors need to be willing to learn more instead of just keep doing the same thing. Because he said a lot of us over prescribe stuff. He wasn't saying he did. He's at least fight. What am I saying?

I'm saying if I start going through the battle, I can find a dozen people will say, oh, you're hearing voices, you're schizophrenic. Means you're mentally sick. Oh, you're depressed, you're probably bipolar, you may be manic. Yeah, I mean, there's some label that right away.

Oh, if that's what it is. Well, okay, so I'm schizophrenic because I'm not really hearing this stuff, even though I think I am.

So you can give me pills that'll bowl down the voices. You know where it's going to go? It's going to go to mockery. If it's demonic, if pills take care of it, praise God.

In other words, if the doctor takes care of it, don't blame demons. If the counselor takes care of it, don't blame demons. Praise God.

But if the problem is spiritual and I'm being treated as if it's mental, here's where it will go. Travis. I've seen it too many times. Travis, doctors didn't help you, did they, Travis? Counselor didn't help you, did he? Or she?

Travis, a Christian counselor didn't help you, did he? Or she? Travis, praying to Jesus didn't help you, did it? Travis? Your elders praying for you didn't help you. See, you're beyond help. You are worthless.

Nothing's going to help you. You would be better off dead because you're such a disappointment to God. If he was ever in your life before, he's not now.

I'm saying you can almost predict where some of that stuff will go when it's demonic. So I tell people, listen for pronouns, and if it's all first person, then own it. That's how we process.

But if you are getting a boatload when you slow that tape down, you this, you that, you always, you never.

My radar goes up saying, since we don't typically process that way naturally, maybe you read a book and it said, again, trick the pastor, but if that's what's really going on in your head, that's what was going on in this gal's head. I'll tell you the irony. I'll finish the story. This gal was a model that made a whole lot of money. She was very good at it.

I asked her, I said, you keep saying you're fat and ugly. Oh, yes, I am. I said, how many fat, ugly models make the kind of money you make? Then she said, oh, I guess I'm the exception.

And I said, you keep saying you're fat. I said, you're anorexic, aren't you? She looked over her friend and she again, I didn't tell him. How do you know?

Well, you keep saying you've got to lose more weight. No one would believe that. You don't need to lose weight. You're skinny already.

Well, I just keep hearing in my head, you're fat and ugly and you're never going to have a husband. You've got to lose more weight. And now once I start that, and then it's this and it's that. That poor lady was thoroughly demonized.

It was a long, slow march out of Eden. We didn't know just what we were leaving. In the book, you talk about being honest. Let's be about. Let's be honest about what we hear.

But when we actually have those voices of condemnation, we recognize that it has a demonic root. How. How do you go about confronting that demon or demons?

First, I want to find out what the level of the involvement is. Here's what I mean by that demonization. Demonizomenos. If you want the participle, demonizomai, if you want the verb.

It was talking about demon control. You know, it's demons causing passivity. That's the basic etymology of the word demon caused passivity.

It can be very, very strong, or it can be something where it's fairly light. Let me tie this in. I'll get your question. I hope I be real careful with it. In Ephesians 4.

26, Paul says, you know sin, but don't let the sun go down on your anger. In other words, that's right. Deal with your sin. I've told people you could put anger, lust, immorality, envy.

You could put anything, fear, unforgiveness. You could put anything in that slot you want. The idea is, deal with your sin. Don't let it stack up. Why verse 27.

You do not want to give the devil foothold, handhold, opportunity. The different translations. Tapas. It's a Greek word. It meant. It was a military term. Travis. It was a military term.

It was used when it was talking about giving away a place, a space, a territory or ground that is supposed to be yours. But you give it to your enemy. So Paul was very aware. When he says, don't give the devil. He says, to who? Tapas.

A place, a space, a territory to control. It's not rightfully theirs.

If you give it to them, they're going to put their flag on it until you're strong enough or find someone strong enough to throw them off the hill. And now it's somebody else's. So Christians, deal with your sin. Do not give the devil that place, space or territory of control.

Well, when I talk about paradigms, I spend a chapter on that, the book. And then in the new chapter, one of those new chapters, chapter 12, I deal quite a little bit with it again, I think.

But whether you're talking about what I.

What people will typically say is oppression, I'll say it's still talking about tapas, still talking about giving a place, a space or territory of control. But it's very light. It's just irritating. You know, someone gets a goofy thought until that missionary explained to me. I said, who? Really?

We called in a missionary who worked with this for 60 years, you know, back to where how this started. George Burch was his name. He was a missionary with Ruth Graham Bell. He and his wife worked with Ruth Graham Bell and her husband in mainland China.

They were thrown out of China in 48, went to Indonesia, worked 18 years there, so 30 years overseas. And then he pastored a White Rock Baptist Church in British Columbia for 30 years. So I met him as an old man, but he was sharp.

And he was the one that said, you didn't get much of an education. I'm going to give you an education on warfare. Here's how this stuff works.

He says, you know, it's funny, he Says here, they say, well, it's all about idolatry and stuff like that. Gods and fruit trees, and we recognize it overseas. And he looked at me and says, carl, he goes, people have their idols here, too.

I mean, it's their car, it's their job, it's their wife, it's their looks. He goes, idolatry. Demons don't care what it's in. They just care if they've got something that moves Jesus to the back.

You know, as long as Jesus is to the back, he moves some. An education there. But so the oppression, I liken that to the arrows that all of us catch.

I don't know any creator not told anywhere in scripture that Satan or his demons cannot shoot arrows at you.

And when I've had people say I walk so close to God that they wouldn't do that because if they were shooting at me, it would mean I was out of the will of God.

I would say, then you go back to Matthew, chapter four, explain to Jesus how you are more righteous than him, if you're more righteous than Jesus, and I'll accept your explanation. But, you know, something tells me that you have a higher impression of your righteousness than God does, because you're not God incarnate.

And they were bold enough to attack Jesus, why in the world would they be afraid of you? Because you go to such and such a church, you've had such and such a theological, you know, paradigm that you're faithful. I just. That's nonsense.

But at any rate, the oppression, that's the arrows. You know, you're fat, you're stupid. Most of that you can just blow off. You know, we catch stuff, and it's like, look at that woman.

And, Pastor, what you would say is. You would say, yeah, but she's not worth my marriage, my wife, my character. That's stupid. I don't know where that came from, but I walk on.

In other words, it's not debilitating, it's irritating. But when you get to what the paradigm would call possession, I don't use that because people always assume possession means ownership.

And I said, demons don't own anything. Demons are squatters. There's one Creator. Everything else is part of the creation. Christ is creator. He's the one who delegated authority to us.

So I don't care what a demon's position is. His authority has still been delegated to him from part of the creation.

So my authority, delegated to me from the Creator, is greater than the authority of a created being giving delegating his authority to his little buddy. So Christians should win instead of playing the role of the victim. I talk about offensive prayer.

I'll say, offensive prayer will take care of oppression. In other words, you get no, I'll say me, because I've been picking on you. I'll say, I get the thought of, you're a horrible pastor.

You've got nothing worthwhile to share. You're just going to be a disappointment to the congregation. So why do you want to preach? That thought would have had me.

They're thinking, I better get to bed, man, I must be tired. Really, God, are you saying that I'm not preparing the right scriptures? Maybe I need to go back over and trash the notes and start again.

Or, I mean, spirit of God, if that's what you're telling me. See, I would. I would catch that kind of thing. And my missionary friend said, you don't understand what that is, do you? And I said, no, I don't.

And he said, you. You've never been talked to about demonic accusation. I said, never. We just made fun of the demonic stuff or ignored it.

I want you to pray like this, Carl. It's offensive prayer. The next time you hear you're a horrible pastor, you can't share one single thought that makes any sense to anybody.

You're a disappointment. I want you to pray instead of offensively or defensively saying, God, hide me from whatever those arrows are trying to do.

I don't want to get hurt by them like a Psalm 27 or Psalm 18. God, hide me. There's. You can pray defensively. That's not wrong. But he said, start playing offensive like Psalm 35.

Lord, contend against the ones who are contending against me. 8. When my enemy lays down a net to catch me, catch him in his own net. 58.

When my enemy shoots arrows at me, return his arrow and shatter his teeth with his own arrow. Psalm 109, Psalm 83. There's so many Jeremiah 18, 18, 23, Nehemiah 4, 4 and 5.

Instead of saying, God, I'll see if I can outrun the arrows, I pray, father in heaven, if may not be. Maybe I'm just not concentrating.

But if that's a demon that's trying to discourage the prep I'm doing for this sermon and telling me I'm an idiot, would you just beat the snot out of that sucker and tell him I'm off limits and I thank you in Jesus Christ's name. I told that young lady where she would hear. She's fat and ugly.

I said, you ever catch that one again, you say, what if that's a demon telling me I'm fat and ugly because they want to draw me back into an eating disorder, Would you just beat the tar out of it? Will you just humiliate them and will you undermine the underminer? I can do that. Yes, you can.

If the only thing a person's dealing with is just the light oppression, it'll just stop. I've had persons say to me many times, I started praying offensively and stuff.

That would have been two hours of navel gazing and disappointed myself. It just stops. I say, welcome to warfare.

Now, if they work with the offensive prayer, and they'll say, carl, it's like something got kicked off the front porch, but now it's on the back porch banging on the door, saying, hey, I'm not going anywhere. You're not getting rid of me because you invited me here. And I, you know, I'm not volunteered to go pray again.

See, it'll say, see, that offensive prayer doesn't work. Well, obviously it worked. It kicked them off the front porch. But what they're saying is, I'm still on the back porch, so I'm stronger than Jesus.

You see, you bet on the wrong one.

So, Lord, I ask in the name of the Lord Jesus, if that's a demon just went to the back door and he's trying to tell me that he's stronger than you, would you just kick the Torah, that sucker, and tell him, just shut up and leave me alone? Thank you. In Jesus name, Amen. Carl stopped again. Welcome to warfare.

If they have a right to be there, if that topaz opened up places, spaces or territories, so they have a right to be involved with you. It isn't just the external arrow that you catch occasionally.

This is something where that door was open wide enough that that demon says, you have given us a place, a space or a territory to control. To think that they're not going to use whatever that was to try and keep expanding, you know, in the military would be the old beachhead.

Then you try and keep, you know, reaching into other areas. So it's like you gave me. You gave me your sexuality. I've got the bedroom, but now I want the kitchen. And now I want the pool room. And now I want the.

Well, I want this to stop. You can't make this stop. I'm stronger than you. You're a lousy Christian. Oh, well, what if I try and make it stop?

Well, then we'll kill your loved ones. Well, if You're a real Christian. You just carry your, you just carry your cross.

You're obviously not a real Christian because a real Christian would never speak evilly towards a mean, towards a demon because you're just supposed to bear your cross and love even your enemies. Are we your enemies? So just don't say anything and live with it.

Oh, I guess I'm doing the Christian thing by just living with this because I wouldn't want to look like I was being offensive to a demon. I'm saying screw that, Travis. I'm saying Jesus told him get lost. I can too.

I contend that because again, we're seeing such a, an explosion of Christianity around the world, but yet we see the numbers go down in the United States. And I think we have fought the wrong battles. We've had a wrong with mission. Drift is really what we see going on.

And those around the world see where the battle is and they're fighting the battle. So it's good to help refocus us back on what the battle, what the battle is. And this isn't something we do tritely right.

This is something that we have to think through. We have to examine the Scriptures. And I think that your book is an aid to help us to see what the scriptures have already shown us.

And as you have examined, referred to, so many people have come to you and are coming to you in your. It sounds like thousands of people have sought you out over this. Would that be an overstatement?

Because there have been missionaries, seminary presidents, Bible college presidents, well known pastors all over just seeking this out again. And I think your book is a very important book that we can talk about this.

How can people learn more about this and what you're doing and how to get engaged or learn more about this themselves besides getting the book and the updated version, may I add, with that, which is WND? Is it the same publisher, WND Books?

Okay.

It's Republic Books.

Republic Books. Okay.

Republic Book Publisher. The way you can tell it, there's. Here's the copy of the newest one, the House. I don't know how you get this to go upside down.

It looks like a bunch of clouds hanging over a little city. That's the one from the public that's got the new material. I would say grab it, read it. I would say if you have questions, give me a call.

I'm certainly not the only one. I mean, I'm finding more and more people. It's fun for me.

Like I said, when I do know someone in an area, state, a city where I go, yeah, they know what they're doing. So I'll get that call regularly. I live in North Carolina. Do you know anybody around me? I live in Montana.

I would like to be able to say you are in 50 states now, I think you said, with what you're doing here, I would love to say, I am sure there are. I would just like to know who some of them are that don't allow this to be a circus. They just deal with it from a delegated authority.

Very matter of fact. No screaming, no yelling. There's none of that. No flopping on the floor.

I've said the people that allow the circus are doing it for one of two reasons. Either they don't know they can stop it, or they're using it as a way to draw attention to themselves.

So people will go, man, that's the man, or that's the woman. Look, it's always so exciting. I go, no, it actually just scares the people that are watching, and it scares the people involved.

Why do you want to do that to them? I would love to say, we've got people all over the country. They're very comfortable. I have never said.

I had someone call me last week, and he was so complimentary. I love your book. I've listened to it over and over. I've read it. I've got it on audio, and I listen to it.

And I'm going to call so and so and tell them that they've got to do this because this is the way to do demonization, and they do not know what they're doing. And I said, brother, put the brakes on just a little bit. I said, I'm glad you've learned something. You appreciate this.

But I said, I've never said what I deal with is the only way to deal with this. I mean, Neil Anderson works with it. There's so many. Tim. Tim, you know, Warner, Marcus Warner, his son, you mentioned him. Get him on your program.

Fred Dickinson, get him on your program. Dean Vanderme from Set Free Ministry, get him on your program. I mean, there's people that are very, very good with this.

Jason Turner in Spokane, he's very good with this. Doug Weaver in the Spokane Post. Father, very good. There's different ones around the country that know what they're doing down at Talbot.

I mean, you've got. They're not. I'm sure there are some teachers afraid of it, but you've got some of the. Some of the big shots down there. I mean, you're.

You know, Hellerman is good Greek. Prof. He's not afraid of this. Clint Arnold. I think his work in the book of Ephesians as good as anything that's ever been done.

He's not afraid of this. I mean, there's just different ones.

But I would just like to see it where instead of being a man, is there any way we can figure out if there's someone enough? I go, God, if you're going to allow demons to have.

It seems like a freer hand, would you also raise up more people and instead of running from this, will actually stand on the authority they have? What I was saying earlier, I don't have a shingle. I mean, I work with transferable discipleship all the time. That's my trigger. That's my heart.

You know, how you lead people to Christ. How do you deal with assurance? How do you deal with forgiveness?

How do you deal with questions, you know, inerrancy of scripture or creation, evolution or, you know, how I love that kind of stuff. This just becomes one more thing I work with now. It's to the chagrin of some because they're going, I wish you had more time.

I said, I'm pastor first. It's to the joy of others going, you haven't allowed this to be just a one pony. One. I go, no, I say, for a pastor missionary, I would just.

Any Christian learning you have delegated authority, do not have to put up with demonic nonsense. Should be one more piece of pie. In your pie, you can slice it in 6 pieces, 8 pieces, 12 pieces, 4 pieces.

If each one of those represents something that it's your ministry pie. Let the working with their mind just be one piece of the piece when it comes up, deal with it. When it doesn't come up, don't go chasing it down.

When you need evangelism, lead someone to Christ. Deal with it. When you need assurance because they think they've lost their salvation, deal with it. In other words, it just becomes one.

I call an arrow in the quiver, Travis. It's just one more arrow in my quiver that if I need it, I pull it out. If I don't need it, it's safe in that quiver. I want you to be sure if you.

I want to take a cheap shot, but this is. I suppose. But I really. I told you. I am so impressed with Fred Dickinson's new book, Dangers of the Spirit World. And, you know, his.

His little intro about we've got to wake up and get into a Christian worldview instead of pastors saying, we have a Christian worldview, but we operate like humanists because we don't want to take on anything that might get us criticized. Isn't it time that we stand on the Christian worldview and the things the book says?

I mean, I'm paraphrasing, you know, but that little book, it's 94 pages. It is so well done. It is so well done. Terms are defined, verses are given.

My comment to him was, I wish I'd had this 40 years ago, because it could have really focused me in on what's the real battle about. And I've read so many books on this stuff. You know, after a while, it's like I. Most of them say the same thing over and over. And maybe that's good.

Some of them, I don't even want to read them. I just go, this is a circus. Fred does such a great job in just going straight at it. Very straightforward, very scripture based.

And if someone is looking for a cliff notes version of something to say, give me a fast overview on this. His is not. I mean, mine. You say it's almost a step by step. How do you recognize how you work through it?

I did that because I want people to be able to have something they can work with. Take it with you on vacation or whatever. Fred's is more of just an intro, but it is powerful. The dangers of the spirit world.

Fred Dickinson came out this last year. It is excellent, brother.

Well, I wanted to thank you for referring that to us. Thank you for coming on the show and talking about your book and walking, I mean, spending so much of your time walking through this.

Because there are many people that this is what they are dealing with. And they've been so desperately looking for resources.

And unfortunately, many of the churches have just shied away, explained it away, tried to duck the conversation, ignore the call. And that forces people to go someplace else.

And rather than do that, we need to be able to answer these questions to the best of our ability according to the word of God. And as you said, avoid the circus. It's not about that.

Even with Jesus, after he does do all of the healing and goes away to pray, and then the disciples are looking for him everywhere, and they finally found him. And they're like, jesus, you're a rock star. You know, you got to keep doing this. And he goes, that's not why I came. I came to proclaim the gospel.

And we know that this is just to. We want to.

We want to proclaim the gospel of Jesus where salvation is but yet at the same time, we know that we don't want to see people tormented when they don't need to be, when they can live in the freedom that the spirit enables them to have. And just too many have been living in the flesh and trying to live their Christian life in the flesh and they're looking for the church for answers.

But the church has in many ways failed because we've had that mission drift. And so it's time to call us back to the word of God to see what God has for us and that truth that we can live in and that victory that he gives us.

And again, thank you for coming on the show and I've just really enjoyed the conversation.

Me too, brother. God bless you. I'm glad you reached out when you did and I'm glad that the schedule allowed when it did. God love you. God bless you. Let's stand to.

I love Carl's heart and his no nonsense approach.

This isn't a guy who's looking for demons everywhere, that he goes under every rock and every problem at its root has a demonic problem at it or some demon in it. No, he is a man who is completely committed to the Bible. And there's no question that the Bible deals with the realities of the spirit world.

And I love how he seamlessly moves from discussions of spiritual warfare to mental health into the way we evangelize and then back again here at Apollos Watered. We call that holistic faith. Oftentimes you have one aspect of faith and you deny another.

I don't know how many times that I have been in churches where people talk about one part of the Christian walk. But when you come up with the subject of spiritual warfare or something else altogether, it might even be mental health, they deny that reality.

So I find that people focus on spiritual warfare like to deny the mental part. And the people that talk about the mental part don't want to talk about spiritual warfare. Well, how about it's a both and how about that?

You know, we've tackled this topic from a couple of angles in previous episodes.

And if you're interested, I would suggest, I would highly suggest that you go back and listen to the episodes from Marcus Horner, episodes 120 and 121, Craig Keener, who talks about miracles, episodes 122 and 123, and the episodes with Scott Moreau in episodes 36 and 38.

Now, I don't know if you noticed this or not, but one of the things that Carl mentioned fairly early in this episode had nothing at all to do with what we think of as spiritual warfare. He actually said that too often the church is so conformed to the world that no one on the outside knows that we are any different.

You know, there is a pendulum that I've noticed that happens.

Oftentimes the church will either be so far removed from the world that they have no idea how to speak to people in the world, or it goes the other way. They want to engage the world, but then they become such a part of the world that they have nothing to offer the world.

And that's where we have to keep the Bible in focus as we go through all of this, because without the Bible we have absolutely nothing.

And starting next week we're going to be talking with the Alan Noble about one of the big reasons that but this world, how we are to behave in it is so important.

It was really one of the most fun conversations that I've ever had and I think that you are going to find it particularly helpful and have a little fun in the process. As always, please subscribe and share Apollos Watered with your friends and family. It really helps us seriously to water the faith of more people.

The more that it gets out there, the more people find it and that they can enter into this life changing relationship with Jesus and live it out the way that God intended. Please pray for us as we continue this ministry. We know that God has created it and is using it to transform lives.

We believe that God wants to grow it and wants to use you to do it. You have shown that just by listening you want to water the world. You want to make a difference.

We invite you to partner with with us to water more and this requires your prayers and your financial gifts. Your prayer and financial partnership are absolutely crucial.

Go to ApolloSweater.org click the Support Us button and pick the amount that works for you. Thank you so much in advance. We really do appreciate it and we do not, I repeat, we do not take it for granted.

I want to thank our team of Kevin, Melissa, Eliana and and Rebecca. This is Travis Michael Fleming signing off from Apollo's Watered. Stay watered everybody.